Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

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Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby Dmog » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:00 pm

I have been working with my PP in the yard on Whoa. Started at heel stopping her with a whoa and once she understood whoa and was standing reliable, I over laid the ecollar with continuous stimulation until movement stopped. Going great, standing still almost in a pointing stance while I kick the grass and toss some fluttering paper. I am thinking we are ready for bird contact but want to do this carefully as to not risk any future blinking on birds. Prey drive is good and has chased many a bird. The problem I noticed as last night I went to finish the yard training with some fun retrieving and she has been forced fetch to stand still by my side until I send her with "fetch". FF was overlaid with the ecollar. Well I tossed the bumper and then commanded fetch, she stayed frozen by my side like I had commander her to whoa. I was about to stimulate her with the ecollar when I realized that would not be good as I was just stimulating her to stand still. So I heeled her to get her moving then commanded fetch and she fetched the bumper and brought it back and held it until I had her release it. I see my error and why some people teach whoa with the ecollar on the flank now. I obviously am not going to confuse her by doing retrieving drills when we are working on whoa but any suggestions on how to transition back to ecollar reliability on both. In the hunting field the ecollar will be on her neck and I will expect her to respond to the command whoa or fetch as trained and be able to entice compliance with the ecollar if need be. I was sure she was solid on the fetch command but that confusion is on me and want to think through this situation before blundering any further.

It just dawned on me after posting this that I started whoaing her from my left side at heel. Fetch command is typically given after stopping her from heel on my left side before fetch command is given. This might be the source of confusion.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby orhunter » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:09 pm

I think it's to early to work on two things at once. When the dog has whoa down pat and the e-collar is no longer needed, that's the time to add another drill. I wouldn't think the use of an e-collar indicates reliability.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby Coveyrise64 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:19 pm

Dmog wrote:I have been working with my PP in the yard on Whoa. Started at heel stopping her with a whoa and once she understood whoa and was standing reliable, I over laid the ecollar with continuous stimulation until movement stopped. Going great, standing still almost in a pointing stance while I kick the grass and toss some fluttering paper. I am thinking we are ready for bird contact but want to do this carefully as to not risk any future blinking on birds. Prey drive is good and has chased many a bird. The problem I noticed as last night I went to finish the yard training with some fun retrieving and she has been forced fetch to stand still by my side until I send her with "fetch". FF was overlaid with the ecollar. Well I tossed the bumper and then commanded fetch, she stayed frozen by my side like I had commander her to whoa. I was about to stimulate her with the ecollar when I realized that would not be good as I was just stimulating her to stand still. So I heeled her to get her moving then commanded fetch and she fetched the bumper and brought it back and held it until I had her release it. I see my error and why some people teach whoa with the ecollar on the flank now. I obviously am not going to confuse her by doing retrieving drills when we are working on whoa but any suggestions on how to transition back to ecollar reliability on both. In the hunting field the ecollar will be on her neck and I will expect her to respond to the command whoa or fetch as trained and be able to entice compliance with the ecollar if need be. I was sure she was solid on the fetch command but that confusion is on me and want to think through this situation before blundering any further.
It just dawned on me after posting this that I started whoaing her from my left side at heel. Fetch command is typically given after stopping her from heel on my left side before fetch command is given. This might be the source of confusion.

Hann places the collar on the neck and uses continuous stimulation for everything. I asked how he got around the confusion similar to your issue and he told me the dog learns by the situation what the stim means.The Smith System uses the flank collar and continuous stim for their stop cue. Lindley uses the neck collar but teaches stop to nick (Momentary) for his stop and stand cue. I have used each of the different methods but prefer Lindley's and I introduce the whoa cue from the heeling position. That's pretty much your choices for the stop (whoa) cue.

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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:50 am

Dmog,

I train Whoa and FF in similar ways to your approach using low levels of continuous stimulation on the dog's neck. When my dog was a little sticky on releasing to retrieve I used a light tap on the top of his head as a physical additional release que, as well as I made sure my voice was projected directly downward towards him when I gave him the command to fetch. I was able to wean off the head tap and just use the voice command over time as he became more conditioned and confident the voice command was releasing him to retrieve. I train the Whoa first at a young age and then an ecollar overlay form of FF later to avoid confusing the dog by working them both at this time.

Consistency and patience will clean it up.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby flitecontrol » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:42 am

With the exception of the current dog, which I got at 14 months old, I always taught whoa from a fairly young age. First while walking on leash (not at heel), and then off as soon as the dog began to understand the concept. None ever confused walking at heel with whoa, and never needed a shock collar.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby Dmog » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:08 am

AverageGuy wrote:Dmog,

I train Whoa and FF in similar ways to your approach using low levels of continuous stimulation on the dog's neck. When my dog was a little sticky on releasing to retrieve I used a light tap on the top of his head as a physical additional release que, as well as I made sure my voice was projected directly downward towards him when I gave him the command to fetch. I was able to wean off the head tap and just use the voice command over time as he became more conditioned and confident the voice command was releasing him to retrieve. I train the Whoa first at a young age and then an ecollar overlay form of FF later to avoid confusing the dog by working them both at this time.

Consistency and patience will clean it up.

Thanks this is a great idea. I need a better release cue. I worked her a short session on whoa last night and did not use the ecollar at all. I dont think I am in as much trouble as I first thought as we plan to work through whoa then steadiness. I will then clean up fetch with physical touch to the head for release and use a bird as this will jazz her up to go retrieve. Bumpers she associates with training most the time unless I plan a little better and get her jazzed up before the retrieving session.
Coveyrise64 wrote:Hann places the collar on the neck and uses continuous stimulation for everything. I asked how he got around the confusion similar to your issue and he told me the dog learns by the situation what the stim means.The Smith System uses the flank collar and continuous stim for their stop cue. Lindley uses the neck collar but teaches stop to nick (Momentary) for his stop and stand cue. I have used each of the different methods but prefer Lindley's and I introduce the whoa cue from the heeling position. That's pretty much your choices for the stop (whoa) cue.
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Thanks Coveyrise64! I found this info very useful. I have been using Hann's Perfect Start and like his training methods but now that I am started, I see a benefit to Lindley's cue and will see if I am too late to switch the overlay ecollar stim. I dont think I am as I have only continous stim her on whoa about 4 times and the last two have been such short durations that in essences they were nicks.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby ryanr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:22 am

I keep my e-collar on continuous only.The first time I added some dead bird retrieves as a reward (my mentor was the one that brought out the dead birds, said she'll be more excited to do it) after we'd been working Whoa and my dog was a little hesitant not wanting to make a mistake I kinda did as AG does, except I default to brushing the ear as gave the Fetch command. She understood then. Like AG said, consistency and a little patience and cleans right up.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby Willie T » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:51 am

Dmog, you hear people throw around the term balanced training. In this instance, transition to a remote whoa. Keep sessions short. Reward the dog at the end of each session with a "fun bumper".
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:19 pm

Dmog, Shouldnt need to use the flank collar. We dont use them on retreivers and wouldnt you risk confusion down the road when you transition off the flank collar? I agree with Willie. More drills on whoa away from you. Whoa the dog, walk away a short distance and call the dog, then give whoa command before he get to you. Work on longer and longer distances.

You can also stop him when he returns with a bumper. I start the dogs pretty early with this one. Ill have them sit on the return, then throw another bumper. let them mark it, recall the dog and send for the last bumper. Whatever drills you can think of.

I dont like tapping the head, cant imagine having to go back to the dog to release?? Should be able to voice release with no issues.

I use continuous for initial training off commands but you really want to get away and got to nicks, the nick feature was developed for pointers so they could nick the dog when it moved on a bird without overwhelming it. Just a reminder. If you do enough work on whoa away from birds the dog wont associate the correction with the bird.

And good job on recognizing the confusion and evaluating!
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:36 pm

I really don't know where this stuff about the ecollar on the flank came from. A retriever learns every command he ever learns wearing an ecollar on the neck and is never confused. Once the pointing dog is trained, he'll work with a collar on his neck, not his flank. Put the damned collar on his neck and leave it there. You may get confused, the dog won't.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby mastercaster » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:29 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I really don't know where this stuff about the e collar on the flank came from. A retriever learns every command he ever learns wearing an e collar on the neck and is never confused. Once the pointing dog is trained, he'll work with a collar on his neck, not his flank. Put the damned collar on his neck and leave it there. You may get confused, the dog won't.


Pretty sure the flank e collar set up came from teaching the dog to whoa using the "Whoa Post" method where you loop a long check cord around the dog's waist lead it away from the post and when the rope tightens around the dog's flank he ends up having to whoa. Using the e collar around the flank is the last part of the process and is supposed to emulate the same thing.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby woodboro » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:51 am

not sure why you guys make dog training so complicated.

I was taught the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line .

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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby Dmog » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:19 pm

I will share with the group that I attended a dog steadiness seminar this weekend and the trainer very successfully used an e-collar on the belly to re-enforce whoa and carried this into steadiness on birds, shot, and finally birds with shot. It appeared to me that the stimulus on the belly for most of the dogs, and these were all pointing breeds, caused a reaction to stand still and in some cases the dog would sit to try and shut of the stimulus but the continuous stimulus on the dog's belly eventually caused most of the dogs to stand on their own. Just another way to skin the cat but wanted to share a way to start out whoa-ing your dog so as to avoid e-collar confusion issues. Several of the dogs wanted to run to the handler as if recalled when the stimulus was first applied to the belly. It was an interesting seminar. Dash transitioned very fast to the belly stimulus meaning whoa and it worked pretty well on her for birds flying in front of her. Interesting was the gun shot with the bird flying was what made her break the worst and a quick stimulus with a whoa and she stopped on a dime, she then was steady on further attempts to cause her to break. Unnecessary step? We could debate as you will transition back to the neck collar upon finishing the breaking process but the trainer says that it is just one more small step that helps consistency and creates a steady dog faster in the long run. She is ready to shoot a bird now and see if she would be steady when that bird falls, which she wont on the first time I'm sure and I can correct it with the whoa command, e-collar, or both at the same time.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby woodboro » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:02 pm

I am curious of OP and others teach their dog only whoa , or use whoa only in the field and stay around the house (what I call citizen commands ?

I wrote an article years ago about the use of one command, and how it can be infringed by the dog , and while being a citizen , he moves , and it goes into the field.

OP - whoa training on obedience to steady to scent, point, flush .... try turning the dog around , face opposite direction and then throw bumper or dead game.
The obedience can shine , and the whoa command generates strength in its meaning.
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Re: Whoa confusion with steady before fetch

Postby Dmog » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:37 am

woodboro wrote:I am curious of OP and others teach their dog only whoa , or use whoa only in the field and stay around the house (what I call citizen commands ?

I wrote an article years ago about the use of one command, and how it can be infringed by the dog , and while being a citizen , he moves , and it goes into the field.

OP - whoa training on obedience to steady to scent, point, flush .... try turning the dog around , face opposite direction and then throw bumper or dead game.
The obedience can shine , and the whoa command generates strength in its meaning.

Woodboro,
Great point about turning the dog around. You might have missed it in my lengthy post without paragraphs...I did get the dog moving on heel and then did fetch successfully to break the similarity to the whoa training. Turning the dog around would have done the same thing for this one I am sure.

The uncertain moment for me and the what do I do now moment came when I realized the correction with the ecollar for retrieve was the same I was just using for "whoa" and my intent at that moment was to do something fun for my dog after some successfully completing some yard whoaing under pressure. It didn't set up that way at all as she showed me confusion.

Another way I noticed to get back on track was I took her down to the water to get her out of the whoa training area I was using and we went back through the retrieve process and this resulted in the handler and the dog getting back on track with fetch.

We have progressed to whoa in the field with pigeon released from a trap, gun fire, and pointed pigeon released from the trap with gun fire. She started to break on the pointed pigeon release and needed a mild correction to stop her. We did it again and she held with no command or stimulus. We are ready to shoot a pigeon from the trap now. Then we will go to Chukar doing same thing as long as she is keeping her range out there on the free runs. If I do not like what I see on the free run range then I will suspend "Field Steadiness" training until after hunting season. I now have a "Whoa" trained dog to hunt with.

The decision point I have approached now is how far to train "Steadiness". I do not think I will test any further and she has had some wild bird hunting but not the contact I would like. She has point 5 wild pheasants with two shot over her. 20 wild quail with 5 shot over her, I missed a bunch. She has backed my older dog on probably an additional 30 quail contacts. Preserve pheasants she knocked out of the park and has had 20 of those shot over her. Probably 20 pen raised Chukar have been released, planted, shot and retrieved to hand. We are done with the pen raised bird game. I guess the point I am making is I may just try and get her into a lot more wild bird work this year with her retrieving training being utilized and whoa is there if needed. I can pick up the Steadiness next year and I run less of a risk of shortening this young dog's range that way. The other part of me which gets me in trouble as a trainer(I like to push for just one more), is things are going well and we could take this momentum and finish her out...

Comments would be appreciated.
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