Pup not interested in fetching dummy

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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby Buck Dancer » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:38 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote: Having an inexperienced 12 year old girl run it. Every part of that is a recipe for disaster.


I wish my 16 year old had an interest in handling and training my dog with me. The hunting world needs more young hunting/dog training enthusiasts. She did help me lobby the wife for a new puppy, so there is that!
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby JONOV » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:52 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I worked the Test. No tossing of bumpers was going to get that pup in the water at that time and location is my judgement. The Judges did their best to coach and assist the hander (I estimate she was 12 years old) but it was not going to happen without a bird. I do not think the Handler's inexperience was a factor in the pup's performance that I had visibility to. (I saw the field and water portions of that dog, I was pulling feathers and clipping blinders on roosters during the tracking which was visible to me for some dogs and not for others due to terrain and the need to move tracks for each puppy.)

On the bigger subject, I saw more pups that day which were not bold in their water test than were, including 2 of 3 PPs over a year old which required a great deal of teasing and coaxing to get them into the water and swimming extremely short distances. They were scored 3 which still allows for a Prize 1 overall.

It was bright sunshine 75 degrees and rising rapidly, calm water, while the water test was being conducted and dogs had to be lead approximately 150 yards from the parking area to the water. Should have been the type of conditions where dogs jump in and swim of their own accord to cool off if nothing else.

I have concerns NAVHDA is loosing its core purpose/focus of breeding better dogs by rigorous testing/evaulations of genetics. Grade inflation and many instances of owner issues leading to improperly and inadequately prepared puppies both cloud an evaluation of inherited skillsets ...

Well, to be fair, the judges really aren't supposed to consider the dogs age, just what he does in front of them. And they aren't supposed to compare to other dogs. And, the dog must get a 3 in water to get a prize 2 as well. And if you follow that, then moving it to a two in water for a hesitant dog that ultimately swims, brings you to "Why bother, I need a bird". So the number for water may not tell the whole story. My dog swam without a bird but he similarly took a bit of coaxing. They dinged in desire to work instead. The track was at a 2 already anyway so it was what it was.

I don't think owners screwing up the handling is a new or developing trend, anymore than those that run dogs that have had a fair bit of pro training and are handled by a pro.
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:23 pm

JONOV wrote:Well, to be fair, the judges really aren't supposed to consider the dogs age, just what he does in front of them. And they aren't supposed to compare to other dogs. And, the dog must get a 3 in water to get a prize 2 as well. And if you follow that, then moving it to a two in water for a hesitant dog that ultimately swims, brings you to "Why bother, I need a bird". So the number for water may not tell the whole story. My dog swam without a bird but he similarly took a bit of coaxing. They dinged in desire to work instead. The track was at a 2 already anyway so it was what it was.

I don't think owners screwing up the handling is a new or developing trend, anymore than those that run dogs that have had a fair bit of pro training and are handled by a pro.


If what I saw out of those 13 month old dogs is going to be consistently scored a 3 then we had better raise the Prize 1 minimum for Water to a 4, because if you value the full Vdog skillset like I do, you sure did not see it in the actions of those two dogs. Equating that degree of hesitation to enter water and swim but maybe a yard with their feet off the bottom as part of an overall Prize 1 award severely devalues it.

To my second point, when I see whole litters scoring well in an NA, particularly with different handlers at different tests, I feel like I can make some valid assumptions about their genetics. When the Sire/Dam/Aunts/Uncles test records are also good, even more so. But in regards to individual dogs I really have to see the dog with my own eyes, especially when I see what I shared in this thread. Even when watching a dog which is having problems unless I know quite a bit about the how the dog has been developed, or not developed, it becomes difficult to separate owner issues from poor genetics.

My comments are not in reference to the young handler and her dog. As I posted I do not think her inexperience factored into the dog's performance at the test. Stretch and I discussed off line and that puppy has not had much development/exposure and it showed. At 6 months there is plenty of time to work on that. I enjoyed seeing the young handler working with her dog and wish them all the best.
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby Stretch » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:34 pm

Last I knew, Barrett was the only one NA tested out of his litter. If I was breeder that would irritate me. Kinda hard to judge a litter with nothing to go off of besides someone’s word that the pup is doing good. To go along with that most people are not going to give a fair assessment of there personal dog.
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:59 am

Stretch wrote:Last I knew, Barrett was the only one NA tested out of his litter. If I was breeder that would irritate me. Kinda hard to judge a litter with nothing to go off of besides someone’s word that the pup is doing good. To go along with that most people are not going to give a fair assessment of there personal dog.


it is pretty easy to capture moments of a pup's development on a cell phone and share them with Breeders. If I were a Breeder I would be encouraging and soliciting it. Same with people soliciting dog training advise online. It is really helpful (essential) to see what is going on before offering advice, particularly with problem areas and videos make that possible.
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby JONOV » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:15 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
JONOV wrote:Well, to be fair, the judges really aren't supposed to consider the dogs age, just what he does in front of them. And they aren't supposed to compare to other dogs. And, the dog must get a 3 in water to get a prize 2 as well. And if you follow that, then moving it to a two in water for a hesitant dog that ultimately swims, brings you to "Why bother, I need a bird". So the number for water may not tell the whole story. My dog swam without a bird but he similarly took a bit of coaxing. They dinged in desire to work instead. The track was at a 2 already anyway so it was what it was.

I don't think owners screwing up the handling is a new or developing trend, anymore than those that run dogs that have had a fair bit of pro training and are handled by a pro.


If what I saw out of those 13 month old dogs is going to be consistently scored a 3 then we had better raise the Prize 1 minimum for Water to a 4, because if you value the full Vdog skillset like I do, you sure did not see it in the actions of those two dogs. Equating that degree of hesitation to enter water and swim but maybe a yard with their feet off the bottom as part of an overall Prize 1 award severely devalues it.

To my second point, when I see whole litters scoring well in an NA, particularly with different handlers at different tests, I feel like I can make some valid assumptions about their genetics. When the Sire/Dam/Aunts/Uncles test records are also good, even more so. But in regards to individual dogs I really have to see the dog with my own eyes, especially when I see what I shared in this thread. Even when watching a dog which is having problems unless I know quite a bit about the how the dog has been developed, or not developed, it becomes difficult to separate owner issues from poor genetics.

My comments are not in reference to the young handler and her dog. As I posted I do not think her inexperience factored into the dog's performance at the test. Stretch and I discussed off line and that puppy has not had much development/exposure and it showed. At 6 months there is plenty of time to work on that. I enjoyed seeing the young handler working with her dog and wish them all the best.

Consider that you're thinking of it the wrong way. Instead of swimming, think of pointing. A dog can get a 4 in pointing, even if it never makes it beyond 30 feet in front of the handler, and doesn't search worth a darn. It walks past the planted bird, nails the point staunchly and productively, then its there. The rest of the performance will be rated lower and the dog won't get a prize one, even if he has a prize one point.

There are two Primary things that judges are looking for at the water section; "desire" and "water." Cooperation is secondary. A dog must get a 4 in desire for a prize one. A dog can get a prize 3, then get marked down for desire to work. Ultimately, the teasing and coaxing is reflective of the dogs desire to work more than anything.
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:43 pm

The extremely short distance was part of it but the 5 minutes of pleading and teasing to get 13 month old dogs in the water in 75 degree heat is not at all what I equate with Prize 1 is my bottom line.

For a long time I have known I have to get my own eyes on a dog working to form my own opinion. Watching Hunt Tests does nothing to dissuade me from that.
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby JONOV » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:35 pm

AverageGuy wrote:The extremely short distance was part of it but the 5 minutes of pleading and teasing to get 13 month old dogs in the water in 75 degree heat is not at all what I equate with Prize 1 is my bottom line.

For a long time I have known I have to get my own eyes on a dog working to form my own opinion. Watching Hunt Tests does nothing to dissuade me from that.

Did the dogs in question get a prize 1 overall?
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:04 am

One did, not sure about the other one.
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby ryanr » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:05 am

Just a note for the NA swim, the dog is only required to swim a few strokes so it actually isn't expected to go more than a couple feet. The coaxing it took for those dogs to get in and swim is what knocked them down to a 3 (still eligible for a prize 1) but since using a bird automatically means the max is a 2, then since those dogs ultimately didn't need the bird is what likely kept them at a 3. You'd hope by the time it's 13-months old would have little trouble getting in the water for a thrown bumper but I guess if the owner had never done any kind of water work then the dog still would be unsure about swimming and need that coaxing, just like many younger puppies do that still go on to become great water dogs.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby JTracyII » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:03 pm

AverageGuy wrote:The extremely short distance was part of it but the 5 minutes of pleading and teasing to get 13 month old dogs in the water in 75 degree heat is not at all what I equate with Prize 1 is my bottom line.

For a long time I have known I have to get my own eyes on a dog working to form my own opinion. Watching Hunt Tests does nothing to dissuade me from that.


I’m with you AG. I’ve seen dogs get a 3 in water that needed quite a bit of coaxing and time to get in the water. I was surprised and thought they would get no better than a 2.
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Re: Pup not interested in fetching dummy

Postby JONOV » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:27 pm

JTracyII wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:The extremely short distance was part of it but the 5 minutes of pleading and teasing to get 13 month old dogs in the water in 75 degree heat is not at all what I equate with Prize 1 is my bottom line.

For a long time I have known I have to get my own eyes on a dog working to form my own opinion. Watching Hunt Tests does nothing to dissuade me from that.


I’m with you AG. I’ve seen dogs get a 3 in water that needed quite a bit of coaxing and time to get in the water. I was surprised and thought they would get no better than a 2.

As RyanR pointed out, if the dog gets knocked to a 2, it defaults to a prize 3. Desire is the other area to look at there. Anything other than a 4 in Desire removes you from a Prize 1 contention.
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