Scooty42- Scientific method

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Scooty42- Scientific method

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:41 pm


Didnt want to hijack the other thread but your comment got me thinking. I see you havent been on this site very long so probably arent very familiar with my work on this subject.

So what "science based research" would be required for me to come to that conclusion?

Well lets look at the variables.
First we need as much data as possible.

We would like to have as many comparisons as possible. As you noted,one day would not be enough to draw a valid conclusion. 3 days would not likely be enough either.

We would like to keep our comparisons as equal as possible. It does no good too compare a retriever day in oregon to pointer day in idaho. Ideally we would like to have the dogs on the ground at the same time.

Quality of dog. Can we identify a benefit of buying better bred dogs?. Ideally if we can get enough data in the field we may be able to draw some conclusions on the benefits of "Well bred" dogs versus what many would say not so well bred.
Would also need to evaluate training and its impacts.

We would need to get the data from different locations.

Some data would be difficult to validate. Shooting skill. Counting bag limit may not give very accurate comparisons. However, with enough data from enough different shooters we can establish pretty reliable results. Different guns, two shot O/U 's versus 3 shot pumps and autos may skew results. Again if we have enough data we can get a pretty decent view of whats going on.

Effort. The canine subjects would be unaware of any evaluation so we simply observe their actions. Human participants are generally competitive enough we dont have to worry about someone shanking the data.

What are we evaluating? Well in essence we are evaluating the productivity of pointing breeds versus retrieving/flushing breeds.
Ive got some college education, mostly math and science. So Im pretty familiar with scientific method. I killed my first chukar in 1977. In 87 I got my first well bred dog and spent the next 3 years immersed in retriever training, learning from both an Avid amatuers and professionals. I hunted chukar mostly and some pheasants. That dog never saw a duck blind till she was about 9 years old. Ive been hunting chukars ever since.

im not sure when i first heard someone say that you had to have a pointing dog to hunt chukars, maybe 20 years ago. I was pretty surprised because i was killing quite a few chukars and mostly doing better than those with pointers.With the advent of the internet I kept seeing the same theme. But my experience was much different.

In the last more than 40 years. I have owned and hunted with a cocker spaniel, (great chukar and pheasant dog), a weim I currently have and many goldens.
my hunting partners have hunted with various pointing breeds. Brits, gsp's and even an ugly dog or two. Have hunted chukars on the deshuttes, John Day , Malhuer, Brownlee, both idaho and oregon, and places in between.

For the last 20 years we have a had a"chukar camp" consisting of co workers. It runs at least 5 days. We have had as many as 17 individuals and 13 dogs in camp. We have again had a mix of ret/flushers and pointing breeds and even an australian cattle dog.

The point is this, I have close to 2000 hunter days, maybe a lot more in the field with dogs of different styles on the ground at the same time. I have seen many thousands of bird contacts of both pointers and ret/flushers.. I have seen well bred dogs, not so well bred dogs, well trained dogs and not so well trained dogs. Can tell you the advantages of each.
Seen thousands of rounds fired. Have pretty good info on shot size.
I have paid attention. The primary take away is this. At least as far as chukars are concerned. A pointing breed does not offer an advantage over a ret/flushing breed.
I have paid attention. You can visit any upland forum out west and hear this "late season birds are more skittish and less likely to hold." Well that has not been my experience at all. I dont see any difference between early season and late season birds. Just one example is my son killing his first limit over a young retriever on the last day of season.
A recent post on our local forum said there were lots of birds but they were flushing wild. Over 40 years of experience, I dont see a difference. So I asked why? It comes down to this. Chukars respond differently to pointers than flushers. To my knowledge, I am the first, most likely the only one to identify this difference. I suspect the difference may manifest itself with other species but I dont have enough data to say for sure.

I probably wouldnt put much effort in all this except folks should know the facts when making a decision about a long term purchase. As much as i like Orhunter, he constantly tells folks on our local forum that ret cant hunt. Its really getting old. But people think he knows what hes talking about. He is breed blind.
Ive been accused many times of being breed blind. As I stated before, I have had a cocker, would have another if i was just upland hunting and could find a good one. I currently have a weim, she might be the worst pointing dog in the country, you get what you pay for. I dont care what you hunt with, just dont spread misinformation about what you dont hunt with, make sense?

So when you ask about "science based research", Ive got 40 years of it. The problem is that the one thing I dont have is documentation. I get it, thats a problem. If I had known the day I shot my first chukar, (no dog by the way, didnt even know what it was, i was in college, get over it) that i would be doing this, i would have kept detailed logs. I would have had my friends sign it.I would have friends carry gps and we could have excellent data on birds per mile per hunter and birds per mile for dog. Would be very interesting. I tried a few ears ago to get some local guys off the forum to document miles per bird etc.. no one would buy in. But what I do have is a pretty good collection of photo evidence. If you need a pointer to get chukars, I shouldnt have pic s of very many right?

On "peer review". Well who are my peers?? are they my friends Ive hunted with for the over last 40 years??? Are they people that have the same level of experience i have in the field?? I betting there is no one with as much experience running different breeds on the ground at the same time as I have. The majority of pointer guys would not run with a ret. My rule is dont let your pointer run in front of us. They bust birds I could get a shot at.

Are they internet experts with basically no experience equivalent to mine???
So tat swhy i made the comment, its a small sample but it mirrors my observations. Theres no huge advantage to a pointer.
Well it took a bit to get here, didnt it?

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Re: Scooty42- Scientific method

Postby Willie T » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:10 pm

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Re: Scooty42- Scientific method

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:56 pm

Willie T wrote:Deleted

That's a shame. Think I would have liked to read that one. :lol:
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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