Need some help

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Need some help

Postby PPgundogs » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:26 am

New to forum, been on the sideline watching.

Took in a 10 month old dog that has a ton of bad habits, barking in the crate, pulling on lead counter surfing, jumping on people, and likes to chew on dog beds or anything in his crate. Basically a spoiled brat who the previous owners let run the show.
Has been with me a touch over a week and I have been making him mind keeping him out of trouble by keeping him leashed inside with me problem is he don’t get it. Can correct him 1000xs and I’m starting to feel like that’s all I do with the time we spend together. He is very cooperative out in the field but get him in the house and his upbringing really shines,

Should I concentrate on one issue at a time and pick away at him or fix everything as it comes? I plan to collar train the dog but thought bonding with him should be the most important thing right now, unfortunately he’s hard to live with right now. Did I mention getting him in a crate is like piglet getting Pooh bear out of a honey pot?
Any ideas?
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Re: Need some help

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:36 pm

type of dog?
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Need some help

Postby flitecontrol » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:54 pm

Sounds like the dog was never trained. It probably has zero experience doing what you expect of it, so it will take time and patience to train it. There is no reason you can't teach multiple things at once, so long as you don't overdo it. A dog's attention span is like a kid's; once they lose interest, they quit learning, and it's not fun anymore. You can get some treats, give the dog a few, and then place one near the front of its crate and give the command "kennel". When it takes the treat, tell it "Good boy!, and place another further inside, repeat kennel, and so on until it is going all the way into the kennel. Once it has learned what kennel means, treats are no longer needed. Feeding the dog in the kennel will also help get him used to it.

When teaching a dog to walk on a lead, I like a pinch collar. The dog controls how much pinching it gets by how hard it pulls. A quick tug (not jerk) on the leash and a command (I use "Quit!") can be used when the dog is pulling on the lead too much. I use a soda can with BBs or small pebbles in it and tape over the opening to divert the dogs attention away from things I don't like, such as barking. Throw the can near, but not at, the dog and give the "No!" command as it hits the ground. You can have several cans scattered around the house so one is available when you need it.


It sounds like the dog may have been the alpha in his previous families "pack". He needs to learn his place in the new pack. I know of two ways to establish dominance. First one is quicker; place the dog on its side, with its back to you (harder for it to bite you if so inclined). Hold the dog down with a hand on its neck and the other on the hip. Enlist assistance if needed. If the dog struggles, continue to hold it down until it relaxes, which it eventually will, then hold it five seconds more and let it up. Do not let the dog get away if it struggles, that just reinforces (to him) that he is more dominant than you. Be prepared for it to try and lick your face when you let it up, which is a sign that it recognizes you are dominant. Everyone in your family needs to do this so the dog knows everyone else is higher on the pecking order, and it has to obey them. Repeat periodically. Second way is to spit on its food. We're not talking a huge wad of snot, just enough spittle that the dog can smell it on its food. The alpha dog feeds first, so your spit on the food is a way to let him know your rank in the pack.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Need some help

Postby PPgundogs » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:03 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:type of dog?

Pudelpointer
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Re: Need some help

Postby PPgundogs » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:14 pm

flitecontrol wrote:Sounds like the dog was never trained. It probably has zero experience doing what you expect of it, so it will take time and patience to train it. There is no reason you can't teach multiple things at once, so long as you don't overdo it. A dog's attention span is like a kid's; once they lose interest, they quit learning, and it's not fun anymore. You can get some treats, give the dog a few, and then place one near the front of its crate and give the command "kennel". When it takes the treat, tell it "Good boy!, and place another further inside, repeat kennel, and so on until it is going all the way into the kennel. Once it has learned what kennel means, treats are no longer needed. Feeding the dog in the kennel will also help get him used to it.

When teaching a dog to walk on a lead, I like a pinch collar. The dog controls how much pinching it gets by how hard it pulls. A quick tug (not jerk) on the leash and a command (I use "Quit!") can be used when the dog is pulling on the lead too much. I use a soda can with BBs or small pebbles in it and tape over the opening to divert the dogs attention away from things I don't like, such as barking. Throw the can near, but not at, the dog and give the "No!" command as it hits the ground. You can have several cans scattered around the house so one is available when you need it.


It sounds like the dog may have been the alpha in his previous families "pack". He needs to learn his place in the new pack. I know of two ways to establish dominance. First one is quicker; place the dog on its side, with its back to you (harder for it to bite you if so inclined). Hold the dog down with a hand on its neck and the other on the hip. Enlist assistance if needed. If the dog struggles, continue to hold it down until it relaxes, which it eventually will, then hold it five seconds more and let it up. Do not let the dog get away if it struggles, that just reinforces (to him) that he is more dominant than you. Be prepared for it to try and lick your face when you let it up, which is a sign that it recognizes you are dominant. Everyone in your family needs to do this so the dog knows everyone else is higher on the pecking order, and it has to obey them. Repeat periodically. Second way is to spit on its food. We're not talking a huge wad of snot, just enough spittle that the dog can smell it on its food. The alpha dog feeds first, so your spit on the food is a way to let him know your rank in the pack.


Good ideas, some of them I have been using ie. spitting on treats, using a pinch collar, and I actually alpha rolled his ass right in front of the previous owner when he hooked me and when I was prying him off he mouthed my hand. Its going to be a long battle with the crate as I have been feeding him in front of it but he has no inclination to get in there, he actually acts like it was used as punishment so Im preparing for the long haul with this. He has a nice personality when he's not acting like a spoiled brat.
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Re: Need some help

Postby orhunter » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:42 pm

Teach whoa/stay with enough authority to make it stick. You don’t have the dog’s attention yet.
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Re: Need some help

Postby flitecontrol » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:48 pm

If you put his food in the crate, when he gets hungry enough, he'll go in.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Need some help

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:45 am

flitecontrol wrote:Sounds like the dog was never trained. It probably has zero experience doing what you expect of it, so it will take time and patience to train it. There is no reason you can't teach multiple things at once, so long as you don't overdo it. A dog's attention span is like a kid's; once they lose interest, they quit learning, and it's not fun anymore. You can get some treats, give the dog a few, and then place one near the front of its crate and give the command "kennel". When it takes the treat, tell it "Good boy!, and place another further inside, repeat kennel, and so on until it is going all the way into the kennel. Once it has learned what kennel means, treats are no longer needed. Feeding the dog in the kennel will also help get him used to it.

When teaching a dog to walk on a lead, I like a pinch collar. The dog controls how much pinching it gets by how hard it pulls. A quick tug (not jerk) on the leash and a command (I use "Quit!") can be used when the dog is pulling on the lead too much. I use a soda can with BBs or small pebbles in it and tape over the opening to divert the dogs attention away from things I don't like, such as barking. Throw the can near, but not at, the dog and give the "No!" command as it hits the ground. You can have several cans scattered around the house so one is available when you need it.


It sounds like the dog may have been the alpha in his previous families "pack". He needs to learn his place in the new pack. I know of two ways to establish dominance. First one is quicker; place the dog on its side, with its back to you (harder for it to bite you if so inclined). Hold the dog down with a hand on its neck and the other on the hip. Enlist assistance if needed. If the dog struggles, continue to hold it down until it relaxes, which it eventually will, then hold it five seconds more and let it up. Do not let the dog get away if it struggles, that just reinforces (to him) that he is more dominant than you. Be prepared for it to try and lick your face when you let it up, which is a sign that it recognizes you are dominant. Everyone in your family needs to do this so the dog knows everyone else is higher on the pecking order, and it has to obey them. Repeat periodically. Second way is to spit on its food. We're not talking a huge wad of snot, just enough spittle that the dog can smell it on its food. The alpha dog feeds first, so your spit on the food is a way to let him know your rank in the pack.


Excellent!
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Re: Need some help

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:00 am

I like and use a Down command to address my young dog when he acts up in the house. I leave him in the position until I release him. It is a useful command in many situations and has the element of handler dominance which I find very useful addressing his behavior when his energy level is boiling over in the house. It has elements of the pinning exercise without the wrestling match and yields a trained behavior which is beneficial in numerous situations e.g. putting on dog boots on the tailgate, after hunt examinations, putting the dog in a down/stay while putting out a decoy spread, putting the dog in a ground blind or pit in a layout boat, answering the doorbell to take a delivery ...

The suggestion to feed your dog in the kennel is the approach I use and it has worked well for me. I place the food in the kennel, leave the door open and do nothing, just letting the dog go in and eat and then come out as it pleases. It gives the dog a positive association with the kennel and then I work with treats and a hand signal and command to "Kennel" after that association is in place.

I work on training multiple commands at a time with much younger puppies and expect you could as well with this dog.
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Re: Need some help

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:51 am

Got my current dog when he was 16 months old. The guy I bought him from told me he hadn't spent much time with him. What an understatement! It wasn't until I got him home that I realized he didn't know his name, much less anything else. But he did well once he understood what I expected of him, and I suspect with time the OP's will too. Just because a dog is older than most when training begins doesn't mean they pick it up faster than a four month old.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Need some help

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:18 am

flitecontrol wrote: Just because a dog is older than most when training begins doesn't mean they pick it up faster than a four month old.
I think speed will vary with the handler, dog and command no matter what the circumstances. But in responding to the OPs question as to whether to work on only one thing at a time my input is don’t assume the dog cannot be working on a few areas simultaneously unless it shows it cannot. I am on the opposite side of your comment. Given young puppies are capable of working on multiple objectives I would assume an older dog can until it shows different. Reading the dog always matters.
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Re: Need some help

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:49 am

AverageGuy wrote:
flitecontrol wrote: Just because a dog is older than most when training begins doesn't mean they pick it up faster than a four month old.
I think speed will vary with the handler, dog and command no matter what the circumstances. But in responding to the OPs question as to whether to work on only one thing at a time my input is don’t assume the dog cannot be working on a few areas simultaneously unless it shows it cannot. I am on the opposite side of your comment. Given young puppies are capable of working on multiple objectives I would assume an older dog can until it shows different. Reading the dog always matters.


I agree, and guess I didn't state my point clearly. Just as some dogs the same age will learn similar commands faster than others, the same holds true no matter how old the dog is. A year old dog with no training may not learn the same command as quickly as a dog half its age. That was the case with my current dog, he just seemed slow to learn anything. Possibly the little human interaction he was exposed to up to that point was the cause. I haven't seen a dog yet that can't learn several things simultaneously; come, sit, kennel, etc..
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Need some help

Postby Willie T » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:56 am

OP, you are starting with a blank slate. Approach it that way. Be patient and teach first. Before there can be any rules of conduct you must establish a means of communication. You have received some good advice. One thing I would add is to run the snot out of the dog everyday. Tired dogs are generally good dogs. My PP is 2. He has solid OB. He is a complete different animal after a hard workout and overall a much better citizen. Good luck with the counter surfing. As they age and learn the rules, they get smarter and hence they become more covert.
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Re: Need some help

Postby JONOV » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:34 pm

I've dealt with this from a couple fosters. I'll say this, the good news its a lot easier to deal with a dog that's never been "Built" than it is to deal with one that's been "broken." The Trust and Bond is easily established by driving to McD's, ordering 6 chicken nuggets, and sharing them with the dog about as soon as you get him.

The "bad" news is the dog is too physically big to make it really easy on you. Things that you really ought to do with the dog when its 10, 20, 30 40 pounds get harder when you've got what amounts to a 15 year old that's hit his growth spurt and is looking Dad in the eye. But like any Dad, you have a few tricks up your sleeve to deal with that BS.

So, start from square one. Teach "come", and "Down," as prescribed in the Green Book. Use treats. Easy enough. Move to Stay. Use a piece of carpet as his "place" he has to stay. You might have to be sorta quick and get the wife/kid to help, but its not rocket surgery. I've found that using a corner of a room is a good way to control a situation with a numbskull big dog, I can walk right up on them and make em sit without turning into a stupid chase game or something.

Leash Manners on a big, rambunctious dog are easiest to teach with a prong collar. Keep the initial sessions short, and if it takes 10 minutes to walk 100 feet, so be it, but do NOT allow regressions or let up on that. If you're becoming mentally frazzled, time for off leash/field time or whatever, let him run around and chase squirrels. A Heel stick might be a good tool for you. Remember, everything needs to be built on. Don't expect him to lie quietly for 20 minutes if you haven't seen him do it for 10.

Make him wait for you to go through a door before he does. Tell him when he can come through that door. I don't prescribe to the ear biting or food spitting or some of the other "alpha reinforcing" behavior but that's just me.

Feed him in his crate. Also, to avoid being annoyed by the barking in a crate, move the crate where you can't hear it if he barks. Garage, Basement, whatever. THis assumes he's just being a turd and not genuninely anxious in the crate. If there's a pile of drool in the front of the crate, he's anxious.

For chewing, correct and redirect by giving him a bone. Some guys here don't like toys of any sort, bones I like a lot especially for a dog that age.

Countersurfing? An ounce of prevention (put stuff up so they can't get into it), but you HAVE to catch them in the act and make it seem like they killed someone. I broke one of my fosters from countersurfing, A GSP that went five months in his new home with no issues...Then one day they came home and the family started arguing about who ate the 5 Krispy Creme's left, til they noticed sugar glaze on his bed...that one made me laugh.

Good luck, it will all work out fine.

Also, it goes without saying, tons and tons of exercise.
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Re: Need some help

Postby JONOV » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:37 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
flitecontrol wrote: Just because a dog is older than most when training begins doesn't mean they pick it up faster than a four month old.
I think speed will vary with the handler, dog and command no matter what the circumstances. But in responding to the OPs question as to whether to work on only one thing at a time my input is don’t assume the dog cannot be working on a few areas simultaneously unless it shows it cannot. I am on the opposite side of your comment. Given young puppies are capable of working on multiple objectives I would assume an older dog can until it shows different. Reading the dog always matters.

I've seen my wife teach puppies parlor tricks (Sit, shake, etc) in the course of an afternoon or a couple days. More than once, on our dog, one we dog sat for, family member's dog we were staying with...10, 12 week old pups...

If its mostly just basic OB type work they can certainly handle it.
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