Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

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Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby ccccrnr » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:35 pm

Can Deustch Drahthaars take handling and cast? And if so how?

I have a Drahthaar that has a awesome strong Search and she knows it. But sometimes with the current in the river or she missed the fall. I need to get her to handle to the retrieve. This is only a retrieving problem outside of 40-45+yards
I've never known a Drahthaar to really take lab/golden owner flapping arms type of signals. So am asking is this out of their wheel house?

Is the excellent nose, drive, and search so overly breed in that its it for a Drahthaar? Or have i missed something that is why she will break from perfect cast to chase her own nose and eyes?
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:16 pm

Yes some of them take handle and cast better than others, but most all drift bad ,they use their nose. Forrest
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby orhunter » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:01 pm

She may miss the fall simply because she can't nail it physically. "The river current." Mentally, she may very well have it nailed. Trust nose and eyes. Experience is the best teacher. I wouldn't worry about fixing what isn't broke. Yet.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby jlw034 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:05 am

Mine would never win a test, but in a hunting scenario it works.

Handling in current? That seems difficult.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:45 am

I have had nominal success teaching basic handling with 3 GWPs. Enough that I can stop the dog and get it to change directions. Works best with overs and backs, subtle angled backs not so much. My objective is to get the dog on the downwind side of a fallen bird and let its search/nose take over. As cover and distance increase my ability to control the dog erodes. I think if I were a better trainer in this area, my dog would be better, but we have the basics down and it is useful in the field. A couple of videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt1ijr5Nle0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0IzoVb0mWw
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby Densa44 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:56 pm

Listen to average guy. If you are a good enough trainer you can teach a dog anything. Having said that, you are just teaching a hunting dog and AG has it right, just get the dog down wind of the bird and your troubles are over.

If you don't know where the bird is, and I often have lively cripples,once you teach her the downwind solution the rest is easy.

Have fun.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:22 am

there has been at least one GWP, one GSP, one WPG (mine), and a couple other versatile breeds to have achieved the highest title (HRCH) in HRC retriever competition. This is out of over 2500 HRC titles since the club's inception in the 80's. Most of the titles of course go to Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, etc. One of my PP's is competing at that level presently and received her Seasoned title last summer (second highest level).

Certainly you can train your DD to handle and likely it will do it very well, but not often at the level of the standard retrievers. How much independence your dog loses in the process probably depends on how you train, but with positive reward training becoming more popular I would think you can expect the typical versatile dog to do quite well.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby LongHammer » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:57 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I have had nominal success teaching basic handling with 3 GWPs. Enough that I can stop the dog and get it to change directions. Works best with overs and backs, subtle angled backs not so much. My objective is to get the dog on the downwind side of a fallen bird and let its search/nose take over. As cover and distance increase my ability to control the dog erodes. I think if I were a better trainer in this area, my dog would be better, but we have the basics down and it is useful in the field. A couple of videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt1ijr5Nle0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0IzoVb0mWw


This might be as good as it gets. Otto will not cast in a strait line for the life of him. He knows basic hand signals and trusts that if I send him there is a bird down and he needs to keep after it whether he marked it or not. My goal is to get him down wind so he can do what he does best. So yes he will handle but not anything like a FT dog.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby booger » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:04 pm

It can be done, it's an uphill battle. I know breeders that will say the same. I'm just glad when mine will follow a thrown rock in the water.

Bruce lays the groundwork for his success early, that's key IMO.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby mastercaster » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:14 pm

My buddy's 8 yr. old DD handles pretty well. It goes in pretty straight lines. My just turned 3 griff, on the other hand, goes in fairly straight lines in training, when she has a good idea where the bumpers were tossed. That being said, I think the versatiles like to follow their nose when doing blind retrieves. Kind of "its the nature of the beast".

This past Friday a buddy and I were duck hunting. It was the last day of the season here in BC and he hit a bird that glided over a huge bramble area, across a channel of water, and landed somewhere out in a ploughed field. I had a little bit of an idea where the bird went down but Sako who was in the blind didn't have a clue.

Thought it would be a lost bird for sure but since there was a lull in the action I took her over to the bramble and after about five minutes we found a way to get to the channel of water. I scoured the field with my eyes but there was no way of spotting it. I said "Dead bird!" and sent her across the canal and just gave her a "Back!" when she got out out. I thought the bird was probably to our right so after she got about 50-75 yards out I whistled for her to stop and gave her an "Over" and damn if she didn't eventually find the bird. Didn't seem to take more than a couple of minutes.

I know she couldn't have seen the bird since her nose was to the ground and even though there wasn't much wind there was obviously enough. When she came back with it I just let her carry it all the way to the blind. My buddy was flabbergasted when we saw her coming back with the bird.

Image

So just how hard is it for these versatiles to go in straight lines when giving them direction commands because it sure seems like they want to rely on their nose as opposed to their sight?
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby LongHammer » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:11 pm

Nobody will ever doubt a Vdogs ability to find game dead or alive. When I send Otto he goes not on a string but in a long down wind loop. The only thing that bothers me is on a long blind he will point the dead bird for what seems like eternity. :) He is the hunter I just drive the truck and run the gun.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby ccccrnr » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:24 am

Drahthaar1108 wrote:Yes some of them take handle and cast better than others, but most all drift bad ,they use their nose. Forrest


LongHammer" The only thing that bothers me is on a long blind he will point the dead bird for what seems like eternity. :) He is the hunter I just drive the truck and run the gun.[/quote]
lol, yeah know the feeling

Mastercaster .... wow, what good team work

[quote="Bruce Schwartz wrote:
Certainly you can train your DD to handle and likely it will do it very well, but not often at the level of the standard retrievers. How much independence your dog loses in the process probably depends on how you train, but with positive reward training becoming more popular I would think you can expect the typical versatile dog to do quite well.

yes since Retriever are breed to take the training that finishes a good retriever, but the DD breeding program forces breeding for every ability Except taking handling. There will probably always be a difference between specialist and generalist

AvergeGuy, thanks for posting the videos, looks like things are progressing for you.
DDs are required to have a this rigid lined up frontal presentation from a speedy 300m retrieve. In high in sight i spent so much of her puppy hood training for that frontal presentation retrieve test, that i may have missed some window on training for exactly what i wanted.

orhunter wrote:Experience is the best teacher. I wouldn't worry about fixing what isn't broke. Yet.

yeah and that gets to some of the rest of the story

my DD, Ani 3, will turn 9 years old this spring
Due to Life, work schedule, family ... more Life we missed out on hunting several of her prime years
about 3 years ago my shock collar became so un-reliable i basically quit trying use it. As we weren't able to go hunting, i didn't run out and get a new one.
being a DD turning 9 her senior years are probably fast approaching

So i don't know what i want to push out of her for coming years, or what gear i might get at this point?
if work/family/life stays like in years past, i probably wouldn't be getting another, i just wouldn't have the time for another one the way that they should be worked and hunted. At least not until getting some kids out of the house.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:02 am

CCCCCNR,

Been busy but thought I should give you the true scoop.

Its not the "nose, drive, search" that's the issue. Good retrievers have the same nose , drive , search , ,,,,,,,Handling is not a natural thing for a dog to do. They are not born and instantly respond to "arm flapping". Handling is a trained skill . whatever the breed, we are training it to respond to our needs not their own natural inclination. When I train my golden to handle, Im training it follow my direction, not its nose.

So here's where the difference lies. Field ret get at lot of "training". They get trained for far more things than a "versatile" dog has been trained historically.Very technical things. A field ret that doesnt accept training, generally does not get bred. "versatile" dogs don't receive the same type training historically.

It takes a lot repetition to train handling. Ret are bred for it, versatile Are not. Thats not to say that can't do it, Ive always believed they can do it better than given credit for. Just that they won't be as good as a good ret bred for it.

My absolute biggest problem when handling while hunting is the nose and drive of the dog. Good handling requires the dog giving away it instincts and trusting you. Its truly remarkable when you get that relationship.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby Duckdon » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:18 am

We don't focus on handling early in a DD's training as we are focused more on search and nose work. I would wager that if we started "lab training" early, forgoing search work and nose work we would see a different outcome. The dogs are smart.
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Re: Can Drahthaars Handle & Cast

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:12 pm

Some learn it, some hate it; they get bored with it. One thing every one of them loves that I have worked with is walking baseball. Learning a handling T is torture but they love walking base ball. Oddly, they seem to like confidence blinds as well. If I had to teach one now, I'd run him on the T until it had the rudiments, start him on sight or confidence blinds and do walking baseball. I'd also work him on remote whistle sits not related to handling for now. When he had all of these things down and was still happy, I'd take him back on the T and work on stop and handle. Of course if you have one that loves running patterns, just teach him in a normal manner.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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