Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby hunter94 » Sun May 12, 2019 6:39 pm

Beeping or sending a vibrate tone to turn the dog is not hacking, you are simply communicating your preferred range to the dog, which likely will change between fields and birds hunted. Easier to reel them in as opposed to directing a larger cast. A good dog will soon know instinctively, by terrain, your preference for his search.
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby AverageGuy » Sun May 12, 2019 7:10 pm

It is hacking when you do a lot of it. Which is what is likely to be required to keep a dog bred to run big within 100 yards.

With experience most dogs learn to adjust their range and pattern to the terrain they are hunting in and then you have an excellent and versatile hunting partner. A dog which reliably holds its point coupled with a GPS tool allows novice handlers to relax and enjoy their dog, and vice versa.
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby Willie T » Sun May 12, 2019 8:53 pm

flitecontrol wrote:What I am seeing in many of these posts, indicates a lack of cooperation. Ed Bailey wrote an article about this several years ago, and opined that many breeders were no longer selecting for this trait. I'd rather have a dog that wanted to hunt with me, than one I had to train to do it, and have to use an e-collar to do it.


Maybe and maybe not flitecontrol. What I got from the OP was a dog with a lot of go and no OB, combined with a handler with no idea which way to turn. A classic case of too much dog for an inexperienced handler. That in combination with two years hunting in the wide open spaces of Kansas, and a FT handler where covering ground is an asset. My size up is the dog is doing what the prior owner expected of it. To me a biddable dog is one that takes to and accepts training easily. And yes I like them that way. We have no idea regarding the bidability of the subject dog. OB is among the first things we start our dogs training with, to include a reliable recall. The OP was flummoxed in regard to how to go about the OB he needed. Without an OB dialog between dog and handler, you can wind up with the dog rodeo we have all seen, even with a really nice dog. For all we know, as a started dog, it may already have that training completed. Training a new handler is often a bigger challenge than training the dog...I personally have witnessed new dog owners with a well trained dog that were convinced the dog knew nothing. Only after the trainer showed them how to run the dog, did they become an effective team.
Personally I like a dog with range and a lot of go. It sounds like this vizsla has that. If it is biddable, with a bit of OB, it will adapt its style to what the OP desires, if the handler can effectively communicate that to the dog. Just because the dog has some range does not immediately put it in the category of a self hunter, or unbiddable for that matter.
A good example of that is the line of EP developed by Ferrell Miller. Often referred to as "white dogs" by quail hunters in my part of the world. Some of the most gifted pointing dogs I have witnessed, have been from this line. It is often said "if you want a dog that will run big, get a white dog". Like GH pointed out, they are genetically selected to run big, and they do. There is also a segment of ruffed grouse hunters that prize dogs from the same line. Their biddable nature allows them to adapt to the tight cover and make stellar grouse dogs, with a lot of bottom, while dogs from the same line also excel with the biggest running FT dogs in the country.
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby flitecontrol » Sun May 12, 2019 11:22 pm

Willie T wrote:
flitecontrol wrote:What I am seeing in many of these posts, indicates a lack of cooperation. Ed Bailey wrote an article about this several years ago, and opined that many breeders were no longer selecting for this trait. I'd rather have a dog that wanted to hunt with me, than one I had to train to do it, and have to use an e-collar to do it.


Maybe and maybe not flitecontrol. What I got from the OP was a dog with a lot of go and no OB, combined with a handler with no idea which way to turn. A classic case of too much dog for an inexperienced handler. That in combination with two years hunting in the wide open spaces of Kansas, and a FT handler where covering ground is an asset. My size up is the dog is doing what the prior owner expected of it. To me a biddable dog is one that takes to and accepts training easily. And yes I like them that way. We have no idea regarding the bidability of the subject dog. OB is among the first things we start our dogs training with, to include a reliable recall. The OP was flummoxed in regard to how to go about the OB he needed. Without an OB dialog between dog and handler, you can wind up with the dog rodeo we have all seen, even with a really nice dog. For all we know, as a started dog, it may already have that training completed. Training a new handler is often a bigger challenge than training the dog...I personally have witnessed new dog owners with a well trained dog that were convinced the dog knew nothing. Only after the trainer showed them how to run the dog, did they become an effective team.
Personally I like a dog with range and a lot of go. It sounds like this vizsla has that. If it is biddable, with a bit of OB, it will adapt its style to what the OP desires, if the handler can effectively communicate that to the dog. Just because the dog has some range does not immediately put it in the category of a self hunter, or unbiddable for that matter.
A good example of that is the line of EP developed by Ferrell Miller. Often referred to as "white dogs" by quail hunters in my part of the world. Some of the most gifted pointing dogs I have witnessed, have been from this line. It is often said "if you want a dog that will run big, get a white dog". Like GH pointed out, they are genetically selected to run big, and they do. There is also a segment of ruffed grouse hunters that prize dogs from the same line. Their biddable nature allows them to adapt to the tight cover and make stellar grouse dogs, with a lot of bottom, while dogs from the same line also excel with the biggest running FT dogs in the country.
Willie


I didn't mean to suggest I was only referring to the OP's dog, although it appears it lacks cooperation (takes it's time in coming when called, ranges farther than the hunter would like, etc.). Cooperation probably means different things to different people. A dog that wants to not only hunt with/for it's boss but to also try to anticipate what the boss wants is the definition of a cooperative dog. Forcing a dog to do what you want it to do by use of an e-collar is not cooperation. It may reflect trainability, or the dog's desire to avoid electronic stimulation, but it isn't cooperation. A lot of folks have lost sight of just what cooperation is, and it's probably due, at least in part, to the fact that it's a trait few breeders insist on, and difficult to find these days.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby slistoe » Sun May 12, 2019 11:36 pm

flitecontrol wrote:Cooperation probably means different things to different people.

At least you got this part right.
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby Willie T » Mon May 13, 2019 6:11 am

flitecontrol wrote:
Willie T wrote:
flitecontrol wrote:What I am seeing in many of these posts, indicates a lack of cooperation. Ed Bailey wrote an article about this several years ago, and opined that many breeders were no longer selecting for this trait. I'd rather have a dog that wanted to hunt with me, than one I had to train to do it, and have to use an e-collar to do it.


Maybe and maybe not flitecontrol. What I got from the OP was a dog with a lot of go and no OB, combined with a handler with no idea which way to turn. A classic case of too much dog for an inexperienced handler. That in combination with two years hunting in the wide open spaces of Kansas, and a FT handler where covering ground is an asset. My size up is the dog is doing what the prior owner expected of it. To me a biddable dog is one that takes to and accepts training easily. And yes I like them that way. We have no idea regarding the bidability of the subject dog. OB is among the first things we start our dogs training with, to include a reliable recall. The OP was flummoxed in regard to how to go about the OB he needed. Without an OB dialog between dog and handler, you can wind up with the dog rodeo we have all seen, even with a really nice dog. For all we know, as a started dog, it may already have that training completed. Training a new handler is often a bigger challenge than training the dog...I personally have witnessed new dog owners with a well trained dog that were convinced the dog knew nothing. Only after the trainer showed them how to run the dog, did they become an effective team.
Personally I like a dog with range and a lot of go. It sounds like this vizsla has that. If it is biddable, with a bit of OB, it will adapt its style to what the OP desires, if the handler can effectively communicate that to the dog. Just because the dog has some range does not immediately put it in the category of a self hunter, or unbiddable for that matter.
A good example of that is the line of EP developed by Ferrell Miller. Often referred to as "white dogs" by quail hunters in my part of the world. Some of the most gifted pointing dogs I have witnessed, have been from this line. It is often said "if you want a dog that will run big, get a white dog". Like GH pointed out, they are genetically selected to run big, and they do. There is also a segment of ruffed grouse hunters that prize dogs from the same line. Their biddable nature allows them to adapt to the tight cover and make stellar grouse dogs, with a lot of bottom, while dogs from the same line also excel with the biggest running FT dogs in the country.
Willie


I didn't mean to suggest I was only referring to the OP's dog, although it appears it lacks cooperation (takes it's time in coming when called, ranges farther than the hunter would like, etc.). Cooperation probably means different things to different people. A dog that wants to not only hunt with/for it's boss but to also try to anticipate what the boss wants is the definition of a cooperative dog. Forcing a dog to do what you want it to do by use of an e-collar is not cooperation. It may reflect trainability, or the dog's desire to avoid electronic stimulation, but it isn't cooperation. A lot of folks have lost sight of just what cooperation is, and it's probably due, at least in part, to the fact that it's a trait few breeders insist on, and difficult to find these days.


Flitecontrol, For what it's worth, I have wondered if the recent improvements and resulting popularity of GPS collars is leading to less focus on biddability by some who breed bird dogs. If a dog is being considered as a field trial candidate, biddability is required to be competitive. Pointing Dog Field Trials are run without ecollars.
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby hunter94 » Mon May 13, 2019 8:14 am

almost seems if you (FC) are saying that if a dog's training includes the use of an e collar, the dog is uncooperative? most people understand that an e collar is a training tool, not a punishment tool....Bob Farris often uses the e collar to communicate and signal his dogs in the field and his PP's are very cooperative. if sending your dog a que in the field renders him uncooperative, then talking to the dog should never be necessary either, just expect him to be clairvoyant.....lol.
most breeders i talk to insist on cooperation as a strong trait in their breeding program, so i don't agree that this is a new problem as such.

i am wondering if the development of the GPS collar has left many to reduce or become lazy in their training program and expect to have a broke dog right out of the box? sure seems that way.

if you decide to FF your dog, does that mean he is uncooperative?

cooperative and hacking are relative terms, without question.
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby orhunter » Mon May 13, 2019 9:10 am

Good post hunter. The fact a dog will respond to an e-collar is a sign of cooperation. A dog that can be "trained" to do most anything is a cooperative dog. Can't associate a dog's range as an indication of any particular level of cooperation. A dog need do no more than be aware of the shooter's presence and respond to it in its own way that produces a productive search.

I want a dog that wants nothing more than to find birds and if controlling the range interferes with that, we're going in the wrong direction.

It's really tough to assess one's situation because each one of us has different conditions and bird species to deal with while hunting. For the Western hunter who chases birds in the wide open spaces to give advice to the woods/grouse hunter is really going out on a limb.

Most everyone expects the dog to do all the adjusting in the field when a lot of the adjusting rests on the hunter's shoulders. I never want to interfere with a dog's desire or blame the dog when something goes wrong just because I'm the human.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby flitecontrol » Mon May 13, 2019 9:23 am

My definition of what cooperation is and is not probably differs from others, and I'll leave it at that.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Controlling the Range of a Hunting Dog

Postby AverageGuy » Mon May 13, 2019 9:27 am

darmento,

The recall training process posted by Willie T is demonstrated in excellent fashion working with multiple dogs in the Perfect Start DVD. The DVD also includes excellent instruction on selecting and using the proper levels of stimulation when training. Buying, watching and following it would be a great investment for you and your dog. Also note the caution in Willie T's post towards the end regarding overworking the range issue and insisting on a 100 yard limit. That second part is why I did not post any suggestions on controlling your dog's range based on the information in your OP.

Rather I suggest you get a solid recall trained and then run your young dog with a GPS collar so that you know where the dog is at all times. Then you can make better determinations as to whether you need to recall your dog because it is straight lining out of the country vs seeking likely objectives where it will find birds. The latter is why you have a pointing dog and why FT lines exist.

How far out does your dog range now? How much experience have you and your dog had together? Have you hunted with the dog since you acquired it?

I hunted Bobwhites in IA, MO and KS last season and it was very common, necessary and productive for my dog to out of sight while hunting. It is the nature of the terrain where we hunt and find wild quail. A pointing dog being out of sight is not a reason to limit its productive range while hunting for birds. My dog has learned through experience to make long casts along the downwind sides of likely cover and to distant areas of cover when looking for coveys. The more open the terrain the further he ranges and vice versa. He has also learned to tighten up to a much shorter range when we are hunting singles spread out in heavy cover. He learned these things through experience and limited interference from me.

When raising the dog I first trained an excellent recall which he will respond to 100% whether voice, whistle or ecollar tone (which is what I use most now). Recall is non-negotiable. But given I had a GPS collar on the pup I mostly let him range and hunt as long as he was safe in doing so. It paid big dividends in letting him learn his craft. As long as a pointing dog is reliable to hold its point for as long as it takes its handler to arrive and learns proper caution as to how close it can approach birds it has scented without scaring them away, there is a big advantage to letting the dog range and hunt vs attempting to keep the dog within an unnaturally close range for its genetics.

Your need and desire for a solid recall is a distinctly different issue than whether you are well advised to begin tampering with your dogs natural range at this time. Given your dog is from a big running FT line you are likely to be constantly working against your dog's genetics for its natural bigger running range in attempting to keep it within 100 yards at all times.

Training recall is your first next step and I recommend following the Perfect Start DVD. If you are inclined to buy a dual training/GPS collar (I use a Garmin Pro 550 Plus) you will have the tool recommended by all for your recall training and a GPS tool which will allow you to relax and be in a better position to make better handling decisions regarding your dog's natural range while hunting in a variety of covers.

Best of Luck, Hope I have been helpful.
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