Easiest versatile dog to train

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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby J D Patrick » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:57 am

ckirsch wrote:It was inevitable that someone would eventually take the bait....


made me chuckle,,,and agree,,,,

crackerd wrote:And lastly you might want to get a better understanding of why Labs are washed out by a FT pro - and then proceed to sell, usually to waterfowlers, for $8,000-$10,000.


my lab,,,likely the last I will have, is nearly 16 now,,,she was a FT pro trainer wash out,,I didn't pay that much, but i got her in early 2006 at 18 months old for a good penny,,,,,once I got her out of her scared phase (she didn't like/couldn't take the pressure he was putting on her) she became a great hunting dog and companion,,,,

I get sadder every day now as she slides downhill,,,still in shape(ish),,,still wants to go,,,but can't last more than a few minutes,,,,guess I should put her down but she eats OK, doesn't whine from pain, and I guess I am just selfish,,,,but she's my long time bud,,,

now I am learning and having fun with Earl,,,my DD,,,

as far as the original question of "which Vdog is easiest to train"??? well, based on my experience, it's whichever one someone else has!!! But we get by,,,,
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby booger » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:32 pm

JONOV wrote:
booger wrote:
Have had the opportunity more than a few times, sometimes in a field, sometimes on water. I've had a cripple get that far out in the water. In the field not that big of a deal.

Are you saying you haven't had this happen to you? Or you just want the specific situation?

I'm saying that when I've had it happen the bird is mobile and moving/swimming. In handling the dog even on a 200 yard line the bird isn't going to be there by the time he gets down there.


Right, but like Willie said, you try to get them on the scent and hope their drive takes over. If they won't go past the decoys or handle, you might as well be hunting alone.


Apparently this difficulty in training isn't the norm for these dogs though as some here have attested to, so I guess I just got a bit of a dud. I'm not looking for champion level anything, just to reliably handle out to 200. I've seen some other duds at training as well, so I wanted more opinions.

A lab might fit me better, but I hate the tail, not a fan of flushers either.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby JONOV » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:09 am

booger wrote:
JONOV wrote:
booger wrote:
Have had the opportunity more than a few times, sometimes in a field, sometimes on water. I've had a cripple get that far out in the water. In the field not that big of a deal.

Are you saying you haven't had this happen to you? Or you just want the specific situation?

I'm saying that when I've had it happen the bird is mobile and moving/swimming. In handling the dog even on a 200 yard line the bird isn't going to be there by the time he gets down there.


Right, but like Willie said, you try to get them on the scent and hope their drive takes over. If they won't go past the decoys or handle, you might as well be hunting alone.


Apparently this difficulty in training isn't the norm for these dogs though as some here have attested to, so I guess I just got a bit of a dud. I'm not looking for champion level anything, just to reliably handle out to 200. I've seen some other duds at training as well, so I wanted more opinions.

A lab might fit me better, but I hate the tail, not a fan of flushers either.

Have you worked at training long blind retrieves? It isn't an easy thing to train but it is simple. And you might have to use a different send command than you use for easy marks in the decoys.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby booger » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:46 pm

JONOV wrote:
booger wrote:
JONOV wrote:I'm saying that when I've had it happen the bird is mobile and moving/swimming. In handling the dog even on a 200 yard line the bird isn't going to be there by the time he gets down there.


Right, but like Willie said, you try to get them on the scent and hope their drive takes over. If they won't go past the decoys or handle, you might as well be hunting alone.


Apparently this difficulty in training isn't the norm for these dogs though as some here have attested to, so I guess I just got a bit of a dud. I'm not looking for champion level anything, just to reliably handle out to 200. I've seen some other duds at training as well, so I wanted more opinions.

A lab might fit me better, but I hate the tail, not a fan of flushers either.

Have you worked at training long blind retrieves? It isn't an easy thing to train but it is simple. And you might have to use a different send command than you use for easy marks in the decoys.


I've ran into my dog tracking my boots when I try to do this. Of course that's on land. But I've done a ton of duck searches. That's basically a long blind when I tape them up like I do.
I've given a "find it" command in hopes that she'd make the connection to search for a bumper/bird. I don't really think she made the connection though.

I typically run into a few different issues when training - 1) little bit of a lack of drive, 2) lack of intelligence, 3) severe lack of confidence. What typically happens with any new commands are this: she defaults to a known command (after showing/praising previously), "no" correction or "acht", re-command, another try at the known command, correction, simplify, re-command, another try at known command. Repeat that about 15 more times and it's a pretty accurate picture of how our training goes. After any correction a bit of fear sets in, it's a cumulative effect so the more "no's" the more scared she gets, eventually she won't leave my side or do anything. The same happens with treats and actually the lack of food seems to not register at all. The only way I've broken through these types of barriers is with harsh corrections. She just doesn't try new things, the thoughts hardly ever occur to do something different than she already knows.

I've essentially given up on training as the time investment just isn't worth it.

For upland she's completely fine.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:23 am

I have learned it is far more productive to analyze what I can do differently when having a training problem than it is to blame the dog. This is not a breed or even a specific dog problem, it is a trainer problem. I say it for the sake of this dog and any future dogs.

All dogs need to be taught a new task before the corrections start and cooperative dogs commonly offer a different behavior they understand when being asked to do new things. Jumping to corrections in the teaching stage of training will shut down a lot of dogs especially when the dog has suffered a long pattern of confused corrections preceding it.

Corrections only facilitate learning when the dog understands what it is being asked to do in the first place, and therefore has a fair chance to offer the behavior it was commanded to do in order to avoid the correction.

I suggest you go audit several clinics before you get your next dog including obedience trainers, as well as upland and retriever trainers. You need to learn how dogs learn before you can train.

Avoiding laying a boot track when teaching a dog blind retrieves is simple. Blaming a versatile dog for running your boot track is a clear indication you have much to learn before working with your next dog.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:35 am

That is probably an impossible question for anyone on this board to answer. There are many variables with the dog and person. It would take a professional trainer that works with all breeds, like John Hahn, Mo Lindley, Hickox or Jonsey.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby orhunter » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:27 am

AG...

Your top line says a lot.

I ran into a broken dog one time at a NAVHDA training day. I was working on the tracking part and this poor dog knew what it was supposed to do but was fearful of birds. I felt sorry for the dog and the owner. Told the owner just to take the dog hunting and love it to death, forget testing, it doesn't matter. I don't know who the breeder/trainer was but I wanted to deliver a hard kick to his balls.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby booger » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:42 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I have learned it is far more productive to analyze what I can do differently when having a training problem than it is to blame the dog. This is not a breed or even a specific dog problem, it is a trainer problem. I say it for the sake of this dog and any future dogs.

All dogs need to be taught a new task before the corrections start and cooperative dogs commonly offer a different behavior they understand when being asked to do new things. Jumping to corrections in the teaching stage of training will shut down a lot of dogs especially when the dog has suffered a long pattern of confused corrections preceding it.

Corrections only facilitate learning when the dog understands what it is being asked to do in the first place, and therefore has a fair chance to offer the behavior it was commanded to do in order to avoid the correction.

I suggest you go audit several clinics before you get your next dog including obedience trainers, as well as upland and retriever trainers. You need to learn how dogs learn before you can train.

Avoiding laying a boot track when teaching a dog blind retrieves is simple. Blaming a versatile dog for running your boot track is a clear indication you have much to learn before working with your next dog.


What do you do if the dog never understands what it's being asked to do then? Even when shown several different ways.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby booger » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:50 pm

orhunter wrote:AG...

Your top line says a lot.

I ran into a broken dog one time at a NAVHDA training day. I was working on the tracking part and this poor dog knew what it was supposed to do but was fearful of birds. I felt sorry for the dog and the owner. Told the owner just to take the dog hunting and love it to death, forget testing, it doesn't matter. I don't know who the breeder/trainer was but I wanted to deliver a hard kick to his balls.


How do you know it was the trainer/breeder? Dogs have different personalities just like people some people are painfully shy, wouldn't it stand to reason that dogs can be the similar?
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:59 pm

booger wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:I have learned it is far more productive to analyze what I can do differently when having a training problem than it is to blame the dog. This is not a breed or even a specific dog problem, it is a trainer problem. I say it for the sake of this dog and any future dogs.

All dogs need to be taught a new task before the corrections start and cooperative dogs commonly offer a different behavior they understand when being asked to do new things. Jumping to corrections in the teaching stage of training will shut down a lot of dogs especially when the dog has suffered a long pattern of confused corrections preceding it.

Corrections only facilitate learning when the dog understands what it is being asked to do in the first place, and therefore has a fair chance to offer the behavior it was commanded to do in order to avoid the correction.

I suggest you go audit several clinics before you get your next dog including obedience trainers, as well as upland and retriever trainers. You need to learn how dogs learn before you can train.

Avoiding laying a boot track when teaching a dog blind retrieves is simple. Blaming a versatile dog for running your boot track is a clear indication you have much to learn before working with your next dog.


What do you do if the dog never understands what it's being asked to do then? Even when shown several different ways.


I would not resort to Harsh Corrections to teach a confused dog a new skill, which is the approach you said you use, I can tell you that for sure.

Without seeing and working with the dog the rest is conjecture but once a dog is broken rebuilding it is far more difficult than training from scratch. Your dog sounds very broken at this point.

I have seen some very talented trainers fix broken dogs. When I am having problems in my training I remind myself of that. It is me that needs to get better so my dog can get better.

I do not hesitate to buy some 1:1 consult time with a talented pro watching/advising my dog and I in training when I feel uncertain about how it is going. It has always been money well spent.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby booger » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:26 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
booger wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:I have learned it is far more productive to analyze what I can do differently when having a training problem than it is to blame the dog. This is not a breed or even a specific dog problem, it is a trainer problem. I say it for the sake of this dog and any future dogs.

All dogs need to be taught a new task before the corrections start and cooperative dogs commonly offer a different behavior they understand when being asked to do new things. Jumping to corrections in the teaching stage of training will shut down a lot of dogs especially when the dog has suffered a long pattern of confused corrections preceding it.

Corrections only facilitate learning when the dog understands what it is being asked to do in the first place, and therefore has a fair chance to offer the behavior it was commanded to do in order to avoid the correction.

I suggest you go audit several clinics before you get your next dog including obedience trainers, as well as upland and retriever trainers. You need to learn how dogs learn before you can train.

Avoiding laying a boot track when teaching a dog blind retrieves is simple. Blaming a versatile dog for running your boot track is a clear indication you have much to learn before working with your next dog.


What do you do if the dog never understands what it's being asked to do then? Even when shown several different ways.


I would not resort to Harsh Corrections to teach a confused dog a new skill, which is the approach you said you use, I can tell you that for sure.

Without seeing and working with the dog the rest is conjecture but once a dog is broken rebuilding it is far more difficult than training from scratch. Your dog sounds very broken at this point.

I have seen some very talented trainers fix broken dogs. When I am having problems in my training I remind myself of that. It is me that needs to get better so my dog can get better.

I do not hesitate to buy some 1:1 consult time with a talented pro watching/advising my dog and I in training when I feel uncertain about how it is going. It has always been money well spent.


I've done it because it has WORKED. You can blame the trainer all you want but 1000+ (and that's conservative) commands to get a dog to stand on all 4s tells me something about a dog's intelligence.

And you're right it is conjecture, your assessment seems off. I've never been against getting better and learning new things. I'd be open to sending the next dog to a trainer or sending them down the road. At the same time it's a 6 year old dog. She is what she is at this point. And she's not some horrible dog, she gets my birds most times, she's extremely well behaved, there are just some things I don't like.

The comments blaming the trainer, seemingly in any circumstance, do lead me to believe you don't think there are dogs that are extremely difficult to train or just plain untrainable. Why do you think it is that so many breeders and trainers buy and sell dogs so easily? I know a trainer that had one of the highest HZP test scores ever that sold the dog because he was a basket case. The same guy told me it would be an uphill battle to handle/cast DDs. I've heard the same from other folks as well.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:01 pm

Post a survey Booger.

Ask folks how they feel about giving "harsh corrections" to a dog while trying to teach it a new skill and see how many takers you get.

Tell them your dog melts down and refuses to even leave your side but you continue to use these tactics and see how many folks agree with you this is a productive training approach for your dog, or any dog for that matter.

Done with you and this thread.

God save the next breed of dog you train to be so fearful it will not even leave your side. It takes special talent to melt down a DD that bad.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby booger » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:09 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Post a survey Booger.

Ask folks how they feel about giving "harsh corrections" to a dog while trying to teach it a new skill and see how many takers you get.

Tell them your dog melts down and refuses to even leave your side but you continue to use these tactics and see how many folks agree with you this is a productive training approach for your dog, or any dog for that matter.

Done with you and this thread.

God save the next breed of dog you train to be so fearful it will not even leave your side. It takes special talent to melt down a DD that bad.

Thanks for your awesome advice!

edit: It's funny you don't think DDs can't be soft. Tells me about all I need to know about the "advice" you're giving.

And you know how I got her to leave my side? Harsh corrections and force.

You're a f*** idiot, please avoid responding to my posts in the future.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby orhunter » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:50 pm

Booger... I can read a dog.... 'nuff said.
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Re: Easiest versatile dog to train

Postby jlw034 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:29 am

Dang, this thread got heated.

KB,

1) after the success I've had with Lena, and with all the high level dogs we have in our chapter, and with all the dogs I saw at the invitational, if I wanted a lab level waterfowl dog that pointed in the field, I would honestly get a pointing lab and train it the navhda way. Training steadiness is soooooo much easier than training handling.

2) I wouldn't write yourself off as a trainer. Banshee was a 2.5 year old dog when you got her. That's a lot of critical foundation time that got missed. I'm assuming that the kennel did very little training to set her up for success in the waterfowl department. The German system really doesn't put a lot of emphasis on the stuff you care about most. I've seen her, she's a nice dog. Who knows what she would have done if you had her from week 8.

3) Do you know why the breeder let her go at 2.5? Did he see something he didn't like? Could that have anything to do with the training trouble your having?
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