FF in 4 Days

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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby mastercaster » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:06 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
Buck Dancer wrote:Evan works with Labs and teaches the ear pinch while he sits on a chair or bucket to save his back. Evan states that the final force fetch (after hold is solid) can be done in a few days with some dogs and while others will take several weeks. He also mentioned in the DVD that pointer trainers most often use the to hitch and table.


Well, owning several pudelpointers, I can safely say doing a FF on them is not for beginners. Sure, labs are tough as steel and are hard to screw up, but if you keep that stuff up on your PP it may not ever speak to you again. Bob Farris does not FF his dogs; rather does a "trained retrieve" or has a pro do a FF. Bob says he doesn't have the heart for it - read his book or call him up and talk to him about it. So Evan Graham says pointer guys "use a toe hitch". Really? At least he knows his program doesn't work on pointing breeds!

Sorry for being so blunt, but I'd respectfully suggest you go about this another way. I'm sure there are people out there who have successfully FF'd pudelpointers following Graham but, frankly, pudelpointers are too sweet a dog to subject to his approach.



I've watched a various youtubes teaching pointing breeds FF'ing plus I own the Jon Hann "Perfect Retrieve" DVD set that uses versatiles for demonstration purposes and none of them used the toe hitch. They all used the ear pinch. When I FF'd my griff I took what I considered the best parts from Smartfetch and the Perfect Retrieve. I think they are both excellent FF training DVDs.

They were both very similar even though Evan Graham was using a lab during the process while Hann was using various versatiles. Hann works from a training table whereas Graham works from a pail sitting on the ground. Evan Grahams process works just fine on pointing breeds IMHO.

I've heard all kinds of people saying griffs are very sensitive dogs so FF'ing might not be a good idea. As far as I'm concerned I don't think they are any more sensitive than other bird dog,,,,at least the pointing varieties. At least mine isn't. My griff seems very similar in disposition as my two brittany spaniels were. I think PP would be fine undergoing a FF program, too, but I'm only basing that on the couple I have met before.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:03 pm

Mastercaster: I appreciate your observations and I mostly agree. Lots of sensitive dogs get FF'd, including PP's, and not necessarily by really skilled people. And of course the corollary is true as well. Also, because there are really great books and tapes out there extolling the virtues of FF doesn't mean they understand a better way of going about it. My guess is they don't understand newer training methods.

My point is this: If you can teach a ten week old puppy (or any age dog for that matter) in a very short time to fetch, hold, and give on command using PR, then why wouldn't you? "Fetch" becomes just another obedience command which may be enforced with the collar same as you do all other commands.

PLEASE somebody give me arguments against that position?
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:37 pm

Bruce the argument is
1) that there are benefits to pressure conditioning you dont get with PR.

2) The more different commands I can pressure condition , the better its understood and makes it easier for the dog to accept pressure down the road in more difficult situations.

3) PR does not do it better than pressure

4) Pr does not lead to any better working relationship with the dog.

5) theres really no reason you cant, I can do FF just using the ecollar .


Doc, I think calling the person a "wimp" means you lost the debate.
Dobbs uses the table and ties the dog to the pole and his feet to the table. Not because hes a wimp, because it reduces the dogs ability to fight and forces the dog to focus on the lesson. allows the trainer to focus on the lesson and not the fight. The dog is also fighting the pole, not the handler. Last thing you need is a wrestling match. Old Pros do it because thats how they were taught, not because its better. Surprised you didnt know that, I thought you knew everything?
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:55 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Mastercaster: I appreciate your observations and I mostly agree. Lots of sensitive dogs get FF'd, including PP's, and not necessarily by really skilled people. And of course the corollary is true as well. Also, because there are really great books and tapes out there extolling the virtues of FF doesn't mean they understand a better way of going about it. My guess is they don't understand newer training methods.

My point is this: If you can teach a ten week old puppy (or any age dog for that matter) in a very short time to fetch, hold, and give on command using PR, then why wouldn't you? "Fetch" becomes just another obedience command which may be enforced with the collar same as you do all other commands.

PLEASE somebody give me arguments against that position?


Because you have installed no foundation in the dog you can use to cure problems later. That's a huge reason for FF; it installs a foundation. No reason AT ALL not to use PR on pups. As long as you install FF later, needed or not.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Doc E » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:55 pm

Kiger2 wrote:
Doc, I think calling the person a "wimp" means you lost the debate.
Dobbs uses the table and ties the dog to the pole and his feet to the table. Not because hes a wimp, because it reduces the dogs ability to fight and forces the dog to focus on the lesson. allows the trainer to focus on the lesson and not the fight. The dog is also fighting the pole, not the handler. Last thing you need is a wrestling match. Old Pros do it because thats how they were taught, not because its better. Surprised you didnt know that, I thought you knew everything?


1. I already told you that I DO know everything --- I just can't recall all of it.
2. If a person can't keep a dog in proper position with 3 fingers under the collar, then
I'd call them a "muscular wimp" --- probably the kid that gets sand kicked I his face at the beach.
Training FF on a table is a wasted step.
.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:46 pm

What if I gave you a dog and you put it on the bench and said "fetch" and the dog reached out in front (or on the ground) and took the dummy in its mouth and held on tightly until you said "drop". You could walk around for twenty minutes with the dog and it would still be holding the dummy. If you threw it fifty feet away and the dog raced to it and retrieved it and delivered it to hand would that dog need its ear pinched? Tell me how would you approach this dog Kiger or GH? I grant you to be solid it would need the collar to reinforce the command, but would it need its ear pinched from the get-go to get that solid foundation you speak of?

A separate question for Kiger: you said you could just do the ecollar from the get-go without the ear pinching. How's that work? Sounds like if I gave you the above dog it would go pretty fast, wouldn't it? I mean, the dog doesn't have to figure out how to turn off the pressure - it just knows that it gets some pressure and gets a command he quickly turns it off by doing what it has already learned. Explain to me the difference here.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:17 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:What if I gave you a dog and you put it on the bench and said "fetch" and the dog reached out in front (or on the ground) and took the dummy in its mouth and held on tightly until you said "drop". You could walk around for twenty minutes with the dog and it would still be holding the dummy. If you threw it fifty feet away and the dog raced to it and retrieved it and delivered it to hand would that dog need its ear pinched? Tell me how would you approach this dog Kiger or GH? I grant you to be solid it would need the collar to reinforce the command, but would it need its ear pinched from the get-go to get that solid foundation you speak of?

A separate question for Kiger: you said you could just do the ecollar from the get-go without the ear pinching. How's that work? Sounds like if I gave you the above dog it would go pretty fast, wouldn't it? I mean, the dog doesn't have to figure out how to turn off the pressure - it just knows that it gets some pressure and gets a command he quickly turns it off by doing what it has already learned. Explain to me the difference here.


I've explained this many times Bruce. I'd be happy to get a 10 month old dog like that in for training. I'd still start over again with the jowl pinch, then the ear, maybe the stick, finally the collar. By doing that I will now have installed a very solid base in the dog where if he quits retrieving in either training or the field, I have a bag of tools to correct him with. I would never skip the ear pinch because I want a hands on method for correcting the dog, not just a mechanical collar. N

With the PR only method, or PR and collar, what happens when the dog enters the terrible two's and decides in training to tell you to go hump yourself? What if when you say "No, FETCH" and hit t he collar he sits down and looks at you or worse, bolts for the timber? That's why you install a strong basic program in a dog. A Pro and most good trainers train for what MAY occur whether it does or not. Same as teaching children things in school they'll never use again: it's there if they need it later. That seems to be what no one understands about a good, basic program.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Willie T » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:46 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Mastercaster: I appreciate your observations and I mostly agree. Lots of sensitive dogs get FF'd, including PP's, and not necessarily by really skilled people. And of course the corollary is true as well. Also, because there are really great books and tapes out there extolling the virtues of FF doesn't mean they understand a better way of going about it. My guess is they don't understand newer training methods.

My point is this: If you can teach a ten week old puppy (or any age dog for that matter) in a very short time to fetch, hold, and give on command using PR, then why wouldn't you? "Fetch" becomes just another obedience command which may be enforced with the collar same as you do all other commands.

PLEASE somebody give me arguments against that position?


Bruce Schwartz wrote:Mastercaster: I appreciate your observations and I mostly agree. Lots of sensitive dogs get FF'd, including PP's, and not necessarily by really skilled people. And of course the corollary is true as well. Also, because there are really great books and tapes out there extolling the virtues of FF doesn't mean they understand a better way of going about it. My guess is they don't understand newer training methods.

My point is this: If you can teach a ten week old puppy (or any age dog for that matter) in a very short time to fetch, hold, and give on command using PR, then why wouldn't you? "Fetch" becomes just another obedience command which may be enforced with the collar same as you do all other commands.

PLEASE somebody give me arguments against that position?


Bruce, before undergoing force fetch, every dog should have already been taught the things you mention. Force Fetch then simplifies the retrieve by breaking it down into each most basic step. Each step is then independently proofed. Moving forward if something breaks down, the handler can quickly read his dog and address the only facet that broke down without confusion. It adds clarity between the dog and handler and builds a rock solid foundation.
It is the proverbial ounce of prevention rather than a pound of cure that is often vilified by well meaning but unknowing bird dog owners. As dog owners we all set the standard for performance differently. Some are fine with perpetual nigling corrections to maintain their standard, while others prefer the reliability of very few, but behavior altering corrections.
It does not sound like force fetch fits your style...

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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:16 am

Willie T wrote:
Bruce Schwartz wrote:Mastercaster: I appreciate your observations and I mostly agree. Lots of sensitive dogs get FF'd, including PP's, and not necessarily by really skilled people. And of course the corollary is true as well. Also, because there are really great books and tapes out there extolling the virtues of FF doesn't mean they understand a better way of going about it. My guess is they don't understand newer training methods.

My point is this: If you can teach a ten week old puppy (or any age dog for that matter) in a very short time to fetch, hold, and give on command using PR, then why wouldn't you? "Fetch" becomes just another obedience command which may be enforced with the collar same as you do all other commands.

PLEASE somebody give me arguments against that position?



Bruce, before undergoing force fetch, every dog should have already been taught the things you mention. Force Fetch then simplifies the retrieve by breaking it down into each most basic step. Each step is then independently proofed. Moving forward if something breaks down, the handler can quickly read his dog and address the only facet that broke down without confusion. It adds clarity between the dog and handler and builds a rock solid foundation.
It is the proverbial ounce of prevention rather than a pound of cure that is often vilified by well meaning but unknowing bird dog owners. As dog owners we all set the standard for performance differently. Some are fine with perpetual nigling corrections to maintain their standard, while others prefer the reliability of very few, but behavior altering corrections.
It does not sound like force fetch fits your style...

Willie


Willie T and others,

Bruce mentions he overlays the ecollar as proofing on the already trained chain of retrieve and hold. In all but the most extreme needs for corrections I think we all use our ecollars for subsequent well timed corrections vs pinching an ear in the field or training.

My question is why is teaching the chain with PR, then overlaying the ecollar and teaching that swift compliance turns it off not a sufficient form of FF?

Why is it necessary to use the ear or jowl pinch in between teaching the chain and the ecollar?

Have your tried skipping the ear pinch and going to the ecollar overlay and gotten inferior results?

Monday night's breakdown on taking a clean angled line of water entry indicated our need to do some work on that. As a precursor to that I setup a FTP review in the yard this morning. I used a low level stimulation at the release command to fetch and ended it as the dog blasted off towards the pile. My thought being to remind him how he turns it off when he immediately blasts towards the pile. Then when we go back to some lining work I plan to setup him up right at the waters edge on short extreme angle marks and do the same.

My thought is using the approach Bruce (and I) use we have an ecollar tool to use a level of force and corrections as needed.

So why is the ear pinch in between teaching the chain and overlaying the ecollar necessary with a dog with a high level of natural retrieve when the ecollar is where we all end up and use for near all subsequent corrections?

Appreciate any and all thoughts on it.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Willie T » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:29 am

It is a more hands on approach that gives the handler more control in guiding the desired outcome. Consequently, as counterintuitive as it seems, you get the desired response from the dog in a shorter amount of training. The dog also knows without question that it is your correction it is beating.
Willie
Edited to add: personally I feel more confident of the level of pressure I'm applying with an ear pinch as opposed to the ecollar. (I am always concerned when using an ecollar that I may be applying a more severe correction than intended)
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:41 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:What if I gave you a dog and you put it on the bench and said "fetch" and the dog reached out in front (or on the ground) and took the dummy in its mouth and held on tightly until you said "drop". You could walk around for twenty minutes with the dog and it would still be holding the dummy. If you threw it fifty feet away and the dog raced to it and retrieved it and delivered it to hand would that dog need its ear pinched? Tell me how would you approach this dog Kiger or GH? I grant you to be solid it would need the collar to reinforce the command, but would it need its ear pinched from the get-go to get that solid foundation you speak of?

A separate question for Kiger: you said you could just do the ecollar from the get-go without the ear pinching. How's that work? Sounds like if I gave you the above dog it would go pretty fast, wouldn't it? I mean, the dog doesn't have to figure out how to turn off the pressure - it just knows that it gets some pressure and gets a command he quickly turns it off by doing what it has already learned. Explain to me the difference here.


The assertion that in the FF process the dog is ear-pinched from the get go is not true at all. At least not the FF process I understand. In another post on FF I believe you also claimed that in FF the dog is left to figure out entirely on it's own how to turn off the pressure. Again, not true at all. Fact is, FF today uses much more praise/reward than I guess you're aware of or want to admit?

In the example you gave about "what if I gave you a 10 month old pup that could..." well everything you describe is TAUGHT to the dog over a course of several weeks or more long before the dog is ever ear pinched. During this time it is low pressure and lots of praise with a light jowl pinch introduced if the dog needs to learn not to drop the object. The ear pinch is the shortest part of the entire FF or fully trained retrieve process. And then the dog is pretty quickly transitioned to e-fetch (e-collar overlay) for cortections after that. At least that's the process I was taught and have seen done on numerous versatile dogs. My dog was ear pinched 3 times, one of her littermates was ear pinched only once before she knew exactly how turn off the pressure and keep it off. In fact all of the littermates I saw SUCCESSFULLY FF'd were ear pinched less than 5 times. And before any of them were ear pinched, every single one of them had a solid foundation of hold and carry built into them over several weeks of TEACHING with praise and the occasional light jowl pinch for a (repeated) drop.

Also, ear pinch or e-collar the dog is turning off pressure and it is taught how to do so.

AG, I think with certain dogs like you describe you could teach the hold and carry foundation and go right to e-fetch. And just from soaking up what I can from the successful trainers I'm blessed to be around I think with "modern" FF, trainers are indeed looking to transition to e-fetch sooner than before. To me, the biggest part though is in laying that foundation by TEACHING the dog before you ever ear pinch or e-fetch and that's done primarily with praise.
Last edited by ryanr on Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:52 am

That's a nice post Ryan and spot on. PR guys I guess will never absorb the reasoning for the ear pinch. They also seem to think that PR is new and it certainly isn't. For as long as I've been around dog's people have tried training with PR only. It works well until it doesn't.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby mastercaster » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:05 am

Really enjoying this thread! Been some good questions and some great answers to justify the FF process. I have a force to pile question but I think I'll start a new thread to ask it.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:22 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:That's a nice post Ryan and spot on. PR guys I guess will never absorb the reasoning for the ear pinch. They also seem to think that PR is new and it certainly isn't. For as long as I've been around dog's people have tried training with PR only. It works well until it doesn't.


Let's not deliberately talk past each other.

I don't think PR is new but when I started training dogs its use was very limited and remained that way in the Gundog world until more recently. The Gundog world still lags severely on the whole but is catching up.

What Bruce questioned (and I subsequently did as well) is why is it necessary to use the ear pinch vs teaching the chain with PR and then overlaying the ecollar.

Bruce (and I) are not training with 100% PR. We both are using ecollar overlays as most of us here do.

Bruce and I have both trained prior dogs using the full FF programs including the ear pinch.

I am not convinced my results were any different than with my current dog where I went from the trained chain of retrieve and Hold to the ecollar overlay and that is why I poised the question of others.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:33 am

Double?
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