The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Pointers

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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:01 am

Hummmm.... I’m in a confused state. How do you take a true PP that is 3/4 EP, back breed it to an EP and end up with a dog that is 1/2 EP? The math doesn’t pencil out.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JTracyII » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:32 pm

orhunter wrote:Hummmm.... I’m in a confused state. How do you take a true PP that is 3/4 EP, back breed it to an EP and end up with a dog that is 1/2 EP? The math doesn’t pencil out.



Haha. That is confusing. I know that question was not directed towards me, but JONOV. But, just to be clear, the governing body in Germany who approved the project didn't consider the resulting dog of the first cross to be a a PP either. My understanding is it had to be back bred to PP's two generations to enter the stud book as a PP. Each generation, of course, had to pass the minimum testing requirements along the way to qualify for the next phase. By the way, many people, like you, say that the PP is 3/4's Pointer. I have not read that in any official literature from Germany. I have heard different figures. Most breed historians say that 90 pointers and only 7 poodles were used in the creation of the breed, which is a whole lot more pointers than poodles if you ask me. The breed histories I've read also state that the poodle's genetics were much stronger so breeding back to pointers multiple times was necessary to get to the desired mix, so who knows how much pointer blood is in there.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:34 pm

Okay, I found my copy of PP history, the beginning. Sigismund Freiherr von Zedlitz-Neukirch and the Pudelpointer. Google might help.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:38 pm

Which is interesting as the norm I have seen is the EP tends to be very obvious and often dominate when crossed onto other breeds. I really do not see alot of similarity in the PPs I have seen work vs the EPs I have hunted with (owned one), in terms of style of work. Those water pudels must have been dominate as you speculate JT2.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JONOV » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:47 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Which is interesting as the norm I have seen is the EP tends to be very obvious and often dominate when crossed onto other breeds. I really do not see alot of similarity in the PPs I have seen work vs the EPs I have hunted with (owned one), in terms of style of work. Those water pudels must have been dominate as you speculate JT2.

If the coats are anything like the modern Poodle, and I don't think it's an extreme stretch to say that there would be a resemblance, I'd believe that. Think of your average Doodle-mutt. Almost any of them bear far more resemblance to a poodle than a Golden, Lab, etc...
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:51 pm

AG: Interesting for sure, "Water Pudel must have been dominate." Get no argument from me.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JONOV » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:06 pm

JTracyII wrote:
JONOV wrote:Out of curiosity, has anyone seen if the progeny of Winterhelle's White Socks have more of a pointer search/range? That dog is 1/2 pointer...

http://www.navhda.us/Reports/ReportToPD ... BreedCd=PP


JONOV,

I mentioned earlier in this thread that, as far as I know, the last time Bodo back bred to the English Pointer was in 2006. It was completely above boards and with the approval of the mother club in Germany. Winterhelle's White Socks is one of the dogs that was the result of breeding to Demarc’s Gift (a female Pointer) whose sire is Demarc’s Wind Dancer (an English Pointer and horseback Field Champion). Bodo Winterhelt obviously was looking for range and run as evidenced by the type of Pointer he chose to use. The Field Trial Champion Pointer type used sparingly by Bodo here in this country likely have more "juice" than those used overseas, especially the Horseback variety.

As I have mentioned before, I am looking to work towards producing a little faster paced and bigger running PP in my breeding program. When I decided to breed my female (who is excellent in many ways in her own right), I was determined to breed to the biggest running NAPPA qualified stud I could find in this country. When I talked to some of my fellow NAPPA breeders it was recommended I take a look at two specific dogs who reside on the West coast as well as a few others owned by fellow NAPPA breeders. A NAPPA breeder I trust said he was familiar with two male Pudelpointers, who are littermates, that they ran as big and fast as he has seen in the breed, and even assisted in the training of them, so he had first hand knowledge and experience of them. These two dogs are distant relatives of Winterhelle's White Socks and are double bred on Winterhelle's Trapper (a long legged versatile, bigger running dog in his own right). Their names are Stone Pine's Blue and Stone Pine's Bodo. Both are said to be great dogs. I bred to Blue as he was said to have a little more speed and run than even Bodo (who is no slouch). The owners of Blue also had hunted some ducks and geese with a decent report on his work in those areas. There is another dog or two out there I am looking at with a similar lineage for future breedings as well, if I don't decide to go back to my new pup's (Cross Timber's Above and Beyond aka Sage) uncle, Bodo, in a couple of years for a line breeding.

The couple who own Stone Pine's Blue are top quality people. They knew Bodo Winterhelt well and spent a lot of time with him up until his passing. I was honored that they made the trip to my place when they picked up their puppy from the litter. They told of various stories of Bodo Winterhelt over breakfast and coffee. Felt like I was being taken back in time and learning the finer details of the history of the PP breed in this country. Also, they owned or had contact with several of the dogs in Blue's pedigree, so I was able learn more about those dogs and what they brought to the genetic table as well. I also learned that the old PCNA dogs are different from the new ones being produced by those currently in charge of the club. The new ones aren't bad, just different than the bigger ranging types of old from when Bodo was around.

One thing I wonder about is Bodo's Geographic relocations, from Ontario to Washington then Oregon, and I wonder how much it had to with his desire for traits in a dog. I appreciate your history there, JTracy.
JTracyII wrote:Some will smirk or frown about the back breeding done years ago to the pointer and my using some of these genetics in my program. That is fine. I used to frown on this sort of thing myself. Years later, I now have a different take on it. Although I don't condone dishonest breeding done in the dark. What Bodo did was done honestly with approval from a governing body. I have decided to not overlook good dogs where ever they are or who ever owns them or whatever club or group they are a part of. Don't have time for politics.

Side Note: Demarc's Wind Dancer, the Horseback Champion I mentioned in the pedigree was used to sire some English Pointer litters. I noticed this as I tried to seek more info about this dog before doing the breeding back in April of this year. I found a litter add online from years ago with this dog as sire for a litter of EP's. I called the guy's number listed for the breeding who lives in PA. When I asked about "Demarc's Wind Dancer" he laughed and said he hadn't heard of that dog's name in a while as the breeding took place over a decade ago. He asked me what I wanted to know? I asked several questions and he said that this dog was a great hunting dog as well as a great trial dog and ran big and hard. The reason for calling this gentleman was to try to get inside Mr. Winterhelt's head and attempt to surmise why he chose to take a female pointer from a litter sired by this particular stud to use for the back breeding. I think I now know. :)
On the contrary, sometimes I think that people get too anal about "purity" of bloodlines. Similarly I think it shouldn't be done in the dark but I recall one breeder that told me "For some of these breeds the woodshed pedigrees might be what saves them." The Dalmation is a good example of that.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:41 pm

"Woodshed pedigrees." The DD is a fine example also. According to Craig K. in his book, after the great wars, the DD was bred to anything (German) with a tail. Seems to have worked out okay.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby TSAMP » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:02 pm

So ill start with full disclosure that i am a novice VD owner. However i can speak to the PP range discussion. I have a large PP male at around 73 lbs. I jog often and i take him with me so he is really never not in shape. He has wheels and runs for days. Range is typically dependent on cover as many pointed out but id suspect his avg to be 400 plus pheasant hunting in Iowa. I think folks can get way to caught up in the details and particulars ( thanks internet). Pick a breed you like to look at and them spend ur research time on finding the best breeder of that. Way to much bias in comparing breeds. Youll have to stare at him laying around far more often than you will be annoyed he isnt 100 yards farther and i can bet a well breed anything will out hunt a majority of us recreational hunters.

Just my two cents.

I also just
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:25 am

Typically, us western hunters prefer dogs with wheels and with the large number of PP breeders in the middle of Chukar country, I doubt the PP comes up short. Trying to have too much of a good thing, fixing what isn’t broke, doesn’t make much sense.

I think some breeders outside NAPPA have confined themselves to a very small gene pool to draw from and In turn restricted their choices for breeding material. Can’t blame the PP as a whole because the gene pool is adequate without backbreeding. Gotta remember, Bodo was German. There’s some baggage that goes along with that.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JTracyII » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:54 pm

TSAMP wrote:So ill start with full disclosure that i am a novice VD owner. However i can speak to the PP range discussion. I have a large PP male at around 73 lbs. I jog often and i take him with me so he is really never not in shape. He has wheels and runs for days. Range is typically dependent on cover as many pointed out but id suspect his avg to be 400 plus pheasant hunting in Iowa. I think folks can get way to caught up in the details and particulars ( thanks internet). Pick a breed you like to look at and them spend ur research time on finding the best breeder of that. Way to much bias in comparing breeds. Youll have to stare at him laying around far more often than you will be annoyed he isnt 100 yards farther and i can bet a well breed anything will out hunt a majority of us recreational hunters.

Just my two cents.

I also just


Thanks for posting. Just curious, what is your dogs pedigree name. I would like to look it up. Also, do you plan to UT the dog?
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Oxbow's Kindle the Fire, UT I, 201 pts, NA 108 pts.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JTracyII » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:35 pm

orhunter wrote:Typically, us western hunters prefer dogs with wheels and with the large number of PP breeders in the middle of Chukar country, I doubt the PP comes up short. Trying to have too much of a good thing, fixing what isn’t broke, doesn’t make much sense.

I think some breeders outside NAPPA have confined themselves to a very small gene pool to draw from and In turn restricted their choices for breeding material. Can’t blame the PP as a whole because the gene pool is adequate without backbreeding. Gotta remember, Bodo was German. There’s some baggage that goes along with that.


Or,

I respect your thoughts on it. I don’t look at it as too much of a good thing. I’m learning that breeding V dogs is a balancing act. I duck hunt more than I do anything else, which may make my desire for more range tricky as I don’t want to lose the patience and calm in the duck blind or the strong retrieve or necessary body mass for cold water retrieves. KJ seems to have done pretty well with his GWP’s as he has pursued a similar mission with his breed, so it seems possible.

With respect to NAPPA, I agree that what makes our alliance so successful is it’s willingness to keep its options
Open in terms of where dogs come from as long as the dogs pass the minimal requirements. Keeps the gene pool more robust and gives our breeders the ability to breed for their needs and local conditions. For that I am thankful.
I-80's Classy and Couragous, UT III, 190 pts, NA 112 pts.
Oxbow's Kindle the Fire, UT I, 201 pts, NA 108 pts.
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https://crosstimbergundogs.com/
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:14 pm

JT..... You’ve got a good perspective, a balancing act. By too much of a good thing I was referring to breeding more range than necessary to get the job done efficiently. I’ve never thought of the PP as a breed lacking range and have never heard someone say they wish their dog had more. If folks aren’t happy with their PP’s range, find another breed. I think most would agree the PP is fine just the way it is. But, you know a lot more than me about this stuff.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby jfwhit » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:14 pm

I too would like to see more range out of my PP. I applaud those that came before us making our birddog breeds better. In my neck of the woods, where there are few woods and a lot of open land, we want dogs that will cover more ground. And getting another breed is the answer for some. Nothing wrong with a kennel wanting to enhance their breed. Good thing those before us that saw a potential for a PP to rival a typical retriever didn’t give up on their kennel breedings and just go get a Labrador. Some or even most owners of PP might be happy with their range, but I still haven’t hunted behind one that stretches out 250 yards or more and stays out. I know they are out there. And I’ve only hunted with a handful. I look forward to hunting with more PP’s and watching mine mature and gain confidence to reach out and cover more ground. I am not disappointed in my dog or this breed. If she doesn’t range out. So what. I’ll be happy with an awesome water dog that will duck hunt, retrieve all shot game with excitement, and the best family pet. But in the field, I catch myself thinking “Reach out a bit farther and quit coming in so often to check in”.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:24 am

Jfwhit.... I’ve seen where people make claims about their dog’s (PP’s) range but I gather most are a poor judge of distance. I’d say your 250 yard assessment is fairly accurate with my limited experience observing PP’s in the field. I’ve also seen where it is said they have more range than a Griffon. Me being a Griff person, I’d argue that.
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