The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Pointers

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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon May 20, 2019 7:41 pm

I agree Ryan. I think AG's dog has bigger wheels than probably 98% of PP's although that could be an exaggeration. PP's don't remind me of EPs in any way - more like retrievers.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Highlander » Mon May 20, 2019 8:08 pm

orhunter wrote:Highlander: "Griffs are too furry so they're out." Don't lump them all together. There are some out there with very nice coats. It would be interesting to see what you're looking at to judge the breed as a whole.


Yes this was my mistake to generalize.

I come from field trail dogs. My first fog was an IS, which came from partly field trail dogs. Then we got a DK from non-German breeding, which basically run like a pointer was very stylish. After that I had an EP, whose lines came from very big Italian runners.
So my point is I am kinda used to dogs with big range. Also I like hunting in big open county, with rolling hills. Although I also like woodcock hunting too.
I am by no means trying to discriminate dogs with shorter range, I just personally like dogs that cover larger areas with good speed and style.

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
Your gf has good taste in dogs at least. The versatile breeds are a ways a way from the EP for sure and if DD's are too close ranging then you won't be happy with the typical PP (who's range can vary but typically not like an EP's). There are fluffy PPs same as very tight coated WPGs. I might be wrong but I've heard that PPs from Europe hunt closer than US dogs. For me I need a dog that will retrieve ducks, hunt quail and sharptail grouse and chukar and get back to the truck at the same time I do. DD's, PP's and WPG's all do that. I'm generalizing a lot.


Thanks Bruce, you made some good points.
I don't expect any continental breed to perform like EP or ES. This would be foolish from my end.

I saw some pictures of PP. Some of them are almost like shorthairs and some of them are very woolly.
I like hunting on huns and quails and pheasants. I would love to get into grouse hunting and mountain ptarmigan. I and my brother used hunt black grouse in high mountains.

AverageGuy

Thank you for such a detailed port.
First I shell say your is really a big runner. I have not seen much of DD's like that. Only a few.
I would not mind a have a DD/GWP/PP similar to your dog.

Like yourself, I also value intelligent in dogs. I am not attached to big runners per se but more of a dog that comprehend the terrain and adopt as needed. I know that the most of German breeds can do that. My DK was like that as opposed to my EP who run in woos like crazy.

EP in Europe run very fast and far. In fact, EP and ES are only breed, which can participate in the most prestigious Grande Cerca FT. Rest of the breeds, even the British breeds, can't keep up with them.
This is one of the examples.

https://youtu.be/81hl_R4Eiq8?t=427

I am highly suspension that they have used or have been using pointers like these ones in PP breeding. These dogs are rear. Only 1 from 10 are born with those traits and only 1 from 25 can pass first year test.
Thanks for your file. I will read it this night!


orhunter

Thank for the reading suggestion. I have heard about Bob, in fact I listened a podcast where he told really good stories.
As far as I know he has retired now.

Yes, there moment when a dog "opens up" and starts understanding difference between vast and close county. That is intelligence. I want a dog like that.

ryanr

Yes my assumption that PP have more run turned out to be wrong. Thank for you guys! and I mean it.
The reason I started this messy topic was that I though PP would have an "extra gear" because of their strange breeding program.
But, as mentioned above DD/GPW are the ones with more reliable and consistent performance. And this why, generally speaking, GSP and GWP have dominated the upland realm in almost every country.

Thank you guys again.
Would like to see more discussion!
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Mon May 20, 2019 9:05 pm

A couple weeks ago I asked Larry Stone, Stone's Throw PP's, how Bob's retirement was going and how it affected the numbers of litters he's making. Larry said anywhere from two to eight litters. Doesn't sound like he's really retired from breeding.

Agree with Bruce's assessment of the PP, "more like retrievers." The PP can endure some pretty harsh conditions hunting waterfowl. So can the GWP/DD.

All this excess range some dogs possess all boils down to what is actually needed. Getting carried away to extreme seems pointless.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JONOV » Tue May 21, 2019 10:14 am

FWIW there's a Field Trial GWP kennel that talks about using some Italian Imports for their breeding program back in the day. The same kennel some of the DD crown thought produced dogs that were a bit too leggy and wide open though still within the VDD standard. Chisola was the name I think.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby bwjohn » Tue May 21, 2019 7:37 pm

this is my pp, briars range. this is really not outside the norm for him. he fairly routinely reaches out this far and further. i consider him an anomaly for the breed.

brandon

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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JTracyII » Tue May 21, 2019 9:53 pm

bwjohn wrote:this is my pp, briars range. this is really not outside the norm for him. he fairly routinely reaches out this far and further. i consider him an anomaly for the breed.

brandon

IMG_0161.JPG


Brandon,

I have to ask what your dogs pedigree number or name is? How is he in water? Do you plan Utility Test your dog? Send me a PM with more info on him as You have my attention.

I have been watching this thread since it started. Most PP’s I have been around have not been what I would call big ranging dogs. Although there are some that run big out there to be found. A persons preferred range is influenced by what they hunt. I hunt Bobwhites most often in the uplands. For quail in open country a medium to large range dog seems to do best. That is a trait that I value and look for in the PP’s I own.

As far as the the backbreeding to pointers that has been done in the Pudelpointer world I have done a little research and will inform you of what I have learned. Bodo W. indeed did this the last time that I know of in 2006. He petitioned the German club in its native land to get approval before doing so. He got approval and did everything above the boards and in the open. I have no problem with how he went about it. Bodo bred to the daughter of a big running horseback field trial FDSB Champion. Bodo wanted more run it appears. He then went back to all PP’s for the future breedings.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Calvinator » Fri May 24, 2019 3:18 pm

I have not taken the time to read every comment in this thread, so my comments may be redundant. There are Pointer crossed into PP both in USA and Germany. I have been told the more recent crosses in Germany have been to Danish Pointers. Not sure the reason for that choice. There is a German import male in the USA right now that has a I believe a great grandparent that is a Pointer. He was born in 2011, so I would say it is currently happening in Germany. Now in the mid 90's the von Holstein kennel in Germany attempted to recreate the breed by crossing Pudels with Pointers. There was a website that talked about the experiment, but it has since been taken down. The VPP even had brochures made that discussed the topic. My sources say it was a hotly debated topic amongst breeders and members of the VPP.
It seems that in the USA most of the PP/EP crosses happened on the west portion of the country as that was where Bodo resided. You can still see evidence in pedigrees from PCNA breeders. As others have pointed out, NAVHDA allowed whatever Bodo bred to be registered with NAVHDA despite Bodo being against the registry.
As for the run and range of the PP, I've owned dogs that easily ranged out 500yds in open cover. Those same dogs shortened they range in the grouse woods, but not nearly enough IMO. They would range 75-80yds in grouse cover. While I've owned other dogs that would only range 100-200yds in open cover and shortened their range to 35-40yds in grouse cover. I've owned German import bloodline, American bloodline and import/American crossed bloodline. My best dog ever was out of a Czech import bred to a heavily line bred American dog. I'm not sure how some of those big running PP of the west would range in the heavy thick cover of the east. Nor do I know how the dogs of the east would range in the sparse open cover of the mountain west. I've only hunted my dogs in OH, MI, PA, MS, SD. I am hoping to hunt MT this coming Sept for Sharpies and Huns.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Urban_Redneck » Sat May 25, 2019 4:51 am

I don't quite understand why you would get a PP or other V dog from east of the Rhine if you want a big running bird dog, V dogs are used quite differently over there. I would look to breeders here, who breed primarily for upland bird work. Also, unless you have an established relationship (beyond a deposit) with a breeder over there, most export their below average pups (bad bites, coat, etc.)- the old country is no guarantee of quality.

The other part of the equation is nurture. While there are some big running dogs born, it takes training and lots of exposure for many V pups to develop their drive into usable, long range confidence.

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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Sat May 25, 2019 9:11 am

Thanks Calvin, good post.

Urban: I attempt a response just because I have nothing else to do at the moment.

The fact the dogs are used differently E. of the Rhine, does not necessarily mean the dogs are born without the ability to do something else. Like you said, the nurture/exposure thing. Good dogs with good owners adapt, country of origin may not mean a whole lot. There are reasons beyond range that can make importing a particular dog or line an asset to N. American dogs. Basic genetic diversity for one, breeding outcrosses. Breeding good dogs isn’t always about line breeding and in many cases the complete opposite. Breeding outcrosses provides options that might not otherwise be available.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Highlander » Sat May 25, 2019 9:12 pm

Calvinator

Thanks for such an interesting post.
That was my understanding too, that sometimes they bring pointer blood back to the stock.

orhunter

I totally agree with you.

I will add one more comment here.

The dogs over there vary not only west or east Rhine but also south to north.

Versatile dog culture is more concentrated around Germany. Austria, Czech Republic, Switzerland and to some extent Hungary have the same or similar upland culture.

Northern or Scandinavia countries, given their geographic location, have their own traditions of upland. Their dogs look somewhat different too. Although they import lot of puppies from Germany too. And also they don’t crop tails to their dogs. These dogs seems to me to be well adapted to the dense northern forests.

Mediterranean countries such as Italy, Spain and France and to some extent Greece as well. France and Italy probably being dominant. These countries produce the list versatile bird dogs. They mostly orient to pure bird hunting tradition and put more emphasis on nose, range, speed and style. The most popular game bird is Eurasian partridge, mountain grouse and woodcock. So all breeding is oriented towards the improvement the performance of hunting these birds.
These dog look a bit lighter and wiry than their German or northern cousins.

The Brits have their own system and produce different type of dogs. Lately it’s more spaniel hunting culture over there than point dog culture.

It should be noted that there many variations within these regional types and many overlapping as well. In fact, to my knowledge the most notable Italian DD breeder Zeffiro only bred his dogs in German breeding system.

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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JONOV » Tue May 28, 2019 1:29 pm

orhunter wrote:Thanks Calvin, good post.

Urban: I attempt a response just because I have nothing else to do at the moment.

The fact the dogs are used differently E. of the Rhine, does not necessarily mean the dogs are born without the ability to do something else. Like you said, the nurture/exposure thing. Good dogs with good owners adapt, country of origin may not mean a whole lot. There are reasons beyond range that can make importing a particular dog or line an asset to N. American dogs. Basic genetic diversity for one, breeding outcrosses. Breeding good dogs isn’t always about line breeding and in many cases the complete opposite. Breeding outcrosses provides options that might not otherwise be available.


You aren't wrong, but why would you take the chance? Its like saying that Pointers can't retrieve. It's not inherently true, but you'd be a fool to argue that you could expect the same retrieve desire from an EP as you would a PP or GWP. You might have it, you might not. But if the trait isn't considered or selected for, you'd never know.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Urban_Redneck » Thu May 30, 2019 7:56 am

orhunter wrote:Thanks Calvin, good post.

Urban: I attempt a response just because I have nothing else to do at the moment.

The fact the dogs are used differently E. of the Rhine, does not necessarily mean the dogs are born without the ability to do something else. Like you said, the nurture/exposure thing. Good dogs with good owners adapt, country of origin may not mean a whole lot. There are reasons beyond range that can make importing a particular dog or line an asset to N. American dogs. Basic genetic diversity for one, breeding outcrosses. Breeding good dogs isn’t always about line breeding and in many cases the complete opposite. Breeding outcrosses provides options that might not otherwise be available.


I agree, the tradition a dog is from isn't the whole story, how large a part of the story, varies.

I completely understand the desire to expand the domestic gene pool by importing lines that are seldom seen over here. I'm not certain if that's what you mean by "outcross" ? I think of outcross as breeding to another or back to a foundation breed to create a "new" line that reinforces or recaptures, a characteristic that is on the wane. Done above board (outcross dog listed on the pedigree), by knowledgeable breeders, it's a vital step to keep the smaller minority breeds healthy.

There's a lot of reasons to import a dog- all are valid. Including, you just want to have "different" -that's called "de-massification". I offered my thoughts as I've been researching dogs/breeders, building relationships in Europe, and following import dogs, for several years. I don't make predictions, but, across several breeds and countries, I've heard import stories of the good, bad, and the downright ugly. The saddest part being sub par imports being bred simply because the owner has so much invested.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Thu May 30, 2019 10:24 am

Out crossing or back breeding doesn’t automatically create a new line. New lines come from breeding related animals for generations to retain wanted characteristics. We can get the same quality through outcrossing and back breeding but to make it last, we may need to line breed, maybe not. It just depends on the genetic strength of those good qualities as well as the absence of what we don’t want. The good and the bad need to be addressed in every breeding decision. A lot of good stuff can come out of taking a chance and everything is fine if breeders can be honest and sometimes say, that didn’t turn out very good, not going there again. We can’t go around thinking every litter is going to or needs to be fantastic, we just need to try. So much has gone into producing great dogs these day there isn’t a whole lot to gain at the top, it’s pretty well established. The key to good breeding is bring up the bottom where the average dog is a whole lot better and that has been very successful. It doesn’t matter very much (if at all) how we get there.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JONOV » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:19 am

Out of curiosity, has anyone seen if the progeny of Winterhelle's White Socks have more of a pointer search/range? That dog is 1/2 pointer...

http://www.navhda.us/Reports/ReportToPD ... BreedCd=PP
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JTracyII » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:26 am

JONOV wrote:Out of curiosity, has anyone seen if the progeny of Winterhelle's White Socks have more of a pointer search/range? That dog is 1/2 pointer...

http://www.navhda.us/Reports/ReportToPD ... BreedCd=PP


JONOV,

I mentioned earlier in this thread that, as far as I know, the last time Bodo back bred to the English Pointer was in 2006. It was completely above boards and with the approval of the mother club in Germany. Winterhelle's White Socks is one of the dogs that was the result of breeding to Demarc’s Gift (a female Pointer) whose sire is Demarc’s Wind Dancer (an English Pointer and horseback Field Champion). Bodo Winterhelt obviously was looking for range and run as evidenced by the type of Pointer he chose to use. The Field Trial Champion Pointer type used sparingly by Bodo here in this country likely have more "juice" than those used overseas, especially the Horseback variety.

As I have mentioned before, I am looking to work towards producing a little faster paced and bigger running PP in my breeding program. When I decided to breed my female (who is excellent in many ways in her own right), I was determined to breed to the biggest running NAPPA qualified stud I could find in this country. When I talked to some of my fellow NAPPA breeders it was recommended I take a look at two specific dogs who reside on the West coast as well as a few others owned by fellow NAPPA breeders. A NAPPA breeder I trust said he was familiar with two male Pudelpointers, who are littermates, that they ran as big and fast as he has seen in the breed, and even assisted in the training of them, so he had first hand knowledge and experience of them. These two dogs are distant relatives of Winterhelle's White Socks and are double bred on Winterhelle's Trapper (a long legged versatile, bigger running dog in his own right). Their names are Stone Pine's Blue and Stone Pine's Bodo. Both are said to be great dogs. I bred to Blue as he was said to have a little more speed and run than even Bodo (who is no slouch). The owners of Blue also had hunted some ducks and geese with a decent report on his work in those areas. There is another dog or two out there I am looking at with a similar lineage for future breedings as well, if I don't decide to go back to my new pup's (Cross Timber's Above and Beyond aka Sage) uncle, Bodo, in a couple of years for a line breeding.

The couple who own Stone Pine's Blue are top quality people. They knew Bodo Winterhelt well and spent a lot of time with him up until his passing. I was honored that they made the trip to my place when they picked up their puppy from the litter. They told of various stories of Bodo Winterhelt over breakfast and coffee. Felt like I was being taken back in time and learning the finer details of the history of the PP breed in this country. Also, they owned or had contact with several of the dogs in Blue's pedigree, so I was able learn more about those dogs and what they brought to the genetic table as well. I also learned that the old PCNA dogs are different from the new ones being produced by those currently in charge of the club. The new ones aren't bad, just different than the bigger ranging types of old from when Bodo was around.

Some will smirk or frown about the back breeding done years ago to the pointer and my using some of these genetics in my program. That is fine. I used to frown on this sort of thing myself. Years later, I now have a different take on it. Although I don't condone dishonest breeding done in the dark. What Bodo did was done honestly with approval from a governing body. I have decided to not overlook good dogs where ever they are or who ever owns them or whatever club or group they are a part of. Don't have time for politics.

Side Note: Demarc's Wind Dancer, the Horseback Champion I mentioned in the pedigree was used to sire some English Pointer litters. I noticed this as I tried to seek more info about this dog before doing the breeding back in April of this year. I found a litter add online from years ago with this dog as sire for a litter of EP's. I called the guy's number listed for the breeding who lives in PA. When I asked about "Demarc's Wind Dancer" he laughed and said he hadn't heard of that dog's name in a while as the breeding took place over a decade ago. He asked me what I wanted to know? I asked several questions and he said that this dog was a great hunting dog as well as a great trial dog and ran big and hard. The reason for calling this gentleman was to try to get inside Mr. Winterhelt's head and attempt to surmise why he chose to take a female pointer from a litter sired by this particular stud to use for the back breeding. I think I now know. :)
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