The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Pointers

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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Dmog » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 pm

It would be interesting to see a bell curve of the range of each breed. You would have to run a regression analysis on it because there is so many variables to an individual dogs range. Cover, training, experience, prey, handler, weather, body type...to name a few. I wouldn’t be surprised one of these factors is more significant to range than breed. . My PP ranges farther than my Griff. I effected my Griff's range as a first time dog handler and he is a deeper bodied dog. The PP is lighter on her feet, higher drive and I didn't make the same mistakes the 2nd time. Just made a few new ones...PP will run through a barbed wire fence where the Griff will jump over or crawl through it...then there is the age thing. Young dog range is farther but not as productive as old dog closer range and finds all the birds.

Love em both!!!
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:34 pm

JTracyII wrote:Or,

I respect your thoughts on it. I don’t look at it as too much of a good thing. I’m learning that breeding V dogs is a balancing act. I duck hunt more than I do anything else, which may make my desire for more range tricky as I don’t want to lose the patience and calm in the duck blind or the strong retrieve or necessary body mass for cold water retrieves. KJ seems to have done pretty well with his GWP’s as he has pursued a similar mission with his breed, so it seems possible.

With respect to NAPPA, I agree that what makes our alliance so successful is it’s willingness to keep its options
Open in terms of where dogs come from as long as the dogs pass the minimal requirements. Keeps the gene pool more robust and gives our breeders the ability to breed for their needs and local conditions. For that I am thankful.


JT2,

I enjoy following along with your journey into breeding. You are a smart guy with excellent intentions/ambitions. Your call out of KJ above prompted me to followup here. Some or most may know my Spud dog came from KJ. He and I have had many excellent emails, texts, photos sharings, instagrams and phone call exchanges over the last 7 years. Got together with KJ, Harvey and Spud in Oregon at a NAVHDA test a couple of summers ago and that was a treat we will repeat. I have the utmost respect for his knowledge, dedication and results in his breeding program. Great guy, Husband, Father, Friend, Hunter to boot. He is a busy guy but as you forge ahead on your journey he is a guy who has 20 years of head start on you and a lot of excellent knowledge to tap when you get the chance. Obviously a different breed but still much applicable knowledge to benefit your effort is my thought. I find it fascinating to study the lineages of his past and current litters (Spud is out of a half brother to half sister line breeding based on a great dog out of Jeff Funke's Three Devils kennel crossed on Kelly's all time favorite bitch), the NAVHDA tests results and the hard core cadre of bird hunters/breeders who are working cooperatively in their quest for the unobtainable "perfect dog", but none the less always the goal.

Edit to add. Also the hands down most objective, critical and discerning of the dogs he breeds and produces of any Breeders I have run across in my 50 years of using hunting dogs.

Best of Luck to you and your quest.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Highlander » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:25 pm

The range is important. Especially for the hunters of western states and provinces. And the most of the German breeds are very good at adopting the terrain and cover where they happen to be hunting.
I watched video of a hunting where a few DD and DK, from Germany, were hunting arctic ptarmigans in Swedish arctic meadows, which is basically very vast and open country.
Their host, a local hunter with Irish setter, said that the German dogs have never seen and never hunted such open space and did not quite know how to hunt in such open range with strong wind. In Germany these particular dogs only hunted pheasants and woodcock, which does not need them to ran far to cover the area. But then he said that it only took a few hours for these dogs to realize what to and how do it in such environment.
The dogs were running 300-400 yards away, for each side, using high nose to spot a ptarmigan. The only difference was that the Irish setter's gallop seemed a little faster, more refined and if you ask me more gracious.
The host guy also made an interesting point stating that in these kind of places they need dogs that run far but not very fast, which allows their dogs to cover a vast area and the same time save more energy. So, efficiency is important.
I assume the similar point can be made for hunters of Western US and Western Canada.

However, the reason they have kept breeding EP to PP is not so much range but speed and the graceful movements the English pointer is known for. The range varies even among the pointers, There are dogs that run 200 meter each side and there are dogs that run 1/2 mile each side, but what these dogs have in common is the style and speed. For me English pointer resembles a cheetah chasing an antelope. And then a sadden stop and they go into a point. Only breed that can compare with pointers in terms of speed, gracefulness of movement and ability of exclusively using high nose is English setter. At least in Europe.
So my point is that EP brings not only a bigger range, but very solid point, light movement, high nose and speed.

One thing that is missing from the NAVHDA and JGHV tests is that they don't have Style, which is unique to each breed, as a separate gradable category.
Both system evaluate the search as how one covers area and how efficient a dog is. But, the aesthetics is totally absent from both systems.
You may see a dog running with very heavy and slow trot but still covering the areas the judge wants him to. This dog will get the same scores as the dog that had run with full and graceful gallop, holding the head above shoulders while covering the same area and finding the exactly the same number of birds.
I feel that both system have an "as long as it finds" attitude when it come actual performance of the search.
At least this is my imprison after reading both test rules.

Other interesting case is that JGHV is part of FCI, which in fact has a testing system wherein the search and the style (of the search and point) are two separate category.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby JONOV » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:42 pm

Highlander wrote:
One thing that is missing from the NAVHDA and JGHV tests is that they don't have Style, which is unique to each breed, as a separate gradable category.
Both system evaluate the search as how one covers area and how efficient a dog is. But, the aesthetics is totally absent from both systems.
You may see a dog running with very heavy and slow trot but still covering the areas the judge wants him to. This dog will get the same scores as the dog that had run with full and graceful gallop, holding the head above shoulders while covering the same area and finding the exactly the same number of birds.
I feel that both system have an "as long as it finds" attitude when it come actual performance of the search.
At least this is my imprison after reading both test rules.


Other interesting case is that JGHV is part of FCI, which in fact has a testing system wherein the search and the style (of the search and point) are two separate category.


The problem is, that you either have to have judges that are versed in what's "Good Style" for a Gordon Setter and a GSP and a Spinone and a Drentsch Patrischond and a Bracco and an EP and however many other pointing breeds there are.

And in the US, other breeds that compete in venues that do grade style, tend to be more and more pointer-like the more competitive they become. Not to mention that a cover dog and shooting dog and all-age dog are all judged differently.

NAVHDA does judge the point itself: "The pointing stance must be intense, convincing, and unmistakable as a point and, in
the end, the point must be productive"
And I have seen dogs get marked down for pointing; including dogs that were prevented from Prize 1 UT scores solely on points that lacked an apparent intensity.
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