The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Pointers

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The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Pointers

Postby Highlander » Sun May 19, 2019 1:24 pm

Hello folks,

I fallow a few pudelpointer owners on Instagram and keep seeing very handsome dogs and some very cute puppies. Although I can’t tell apart a pp from a brown dd I still find this breed attractive. (Maybe someone will help me out here with this issue)

Since I have zero experience with pp and know almost nothing about the breed’s nature and character I have decided to conduct a research and find out more about it.

So... as the breed name suggests it is descended from pointers and puddle. This part I understand, but what I didn’t get is that, apparently to this day English pointers are still bred with modern pps. I was surprised.

My question are of these sort.
what grounds is done on?
Meaning who and how do they decide when and why to bring the English pointer genes back to already established breed ?
What club is in charge to carry out this cross breeding?
What is the status of those mixed pups?
What type of the English pointer is used? With what traits and qualities? Field trail stock vs hunting stock?
If happened that I bought a pup whose father was a half pointer or even a pure English pointer, am will I be able to call my pup pp and participate in NAVDA trails ?

I was unable to find answers to these and similar questions. As my interest in this breed grows I would like to know what pure breed pp and what is not.

I hope to have really a insightful conversation. Since this dog has got quite a unique breeding history I am looking forward to hear from the experienced owners.

Best,
H.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby bwjohn » Sun May 19, 2019 1:33 pm

Someone will surely correct me if i am wrong. But i do t think pointers are still being breed in. I thought that was more in the 80s, but i could be wrong.

I dont think most groups, breed alliances or other started pp groups would condone that and therefore would probably not be registrable with NAVHDA. It seems most groups in the us are using navhda as their registry database and setting their own criteria for breeding.

Do you currently run pointers? Just curious if that is why you like the idea of the cross?

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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby flitecontrol » Sun May 19, 2019 2:34 pm

Not to be too redundant (yes, I have a burr under my saddle on the issue) but NAVDA picks and chooses, without any expressed rationale, what outcrossings they will recognize. If Bodo Winterhelt, who was primarily responsible for the breed's popularity in North America, wants to cross a PP with an EP, that's ok. Cross a WPG with a similar breed, and NAVDA gets their panties in a wad.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Sun May 19, 2019 5:26 pm

Bodo did back breed but can't speak for any of his followers or any club affiliation. I've seen a few of these 7/8 EP dogs and their field work is on par with the standard PP but some look terrible. Sort of washed out gray and sometimes a bit of white, not the rich brown color we're used to. No PP's to my knowledge are 1/2 pointer because the Water Pudel used in the first place no longer exists to back breed to. The true PP is 3/4 EP.

If NAVHDA accepts the 7/8 EP dogs, they'd also have to accept back breeding the WPG, GSP/DK, Stichelhaar or PP to GWP/DD's. Something I kid KJ about upon occasion.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Highlander » Sun May 19, 2019 7:21 pm

bwjohn wrote:Someone will surely correct me if i am wrong. But i do t think pointers are still being breed in. I thought that was more in the 80s, but i could be wrong.

I dont think most groups, breed alliances or other started pp groups would condone that and therefore would probably not be registrable with NAVHDA. It seems most groups in the us are using navhda as their registry database and setting their own criteria for breeding.

Do you currently run pointers? Just curious if that is why you like the idea of the cross?

Brandon


I don’t a have a dog at this moment. I am planning on to get a pup, hopefully from overseas, of GSP or EP. Also possible an ES.
But the thing is my gf, who is willing to share the cost of the pup and travel, likes wired hair breeds. She does not know anything about upland but she is very interested. “Unfortunately”, the cuteness of a pup is important for her... :)
That’s why we started looking into this breed.

This led me thinking of bearded dogs. As much as respect DD they are a bit slow and close range dogs for my taste. At least the most of the DDs I saw were like that. The griffs are too furry for so they are out.
So I reckon pp may be a good medium between EP and DD. Now I do know that this could be a very silly assumption but I thought if they have got some EP blood they might be close to the dogs of my taste.

What puzzles me is whether this done here in America or in Germany or in both countries. And who is in charge, in America, to make sure it’s done correctly.

It seems that in Germany the main club is in charge of carrying out this experiment.
I copied the fallowing statement from the German site. It’s google translated.

[i][After almost thirty years of breeding planning based on the principle of pure breeding, a narrow-minded experiment with Pointer's blood was made in 1983 again. The offspring, which are initially subject to the breeding ban, are always subjected to a strict selection process.

The two breeding methods practiced in PP breeding are therefore pure breeding and occasionally limited backcrossing with Pointer's blood, the latter only with the approval of the annual general meeting. While line breeding practiced as part of pure breeding, which at the same time means slight inbreeding, achieves a balanced constant level of performance and a uniform type, occasional backcrossings only bring about relatively short-term successes (heterosis effect). In a somewhat narrow breeding base, however, backcrossing counteracts inbreeding depression./i]

I am extremely curious to know how this pups perform and how they look. I do know in Germany there are a few very good EP kennels, though not as good as Italy.

How they pick what kind, what color, what type to pick... these are questions I have got.

Maybe some pp aficionados will help us.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Sun May 19, 2019 9:30 pm

Highlander: "Griffs are too furry so they're out." Don't lump them all together. There are some out there with very nice coats. It would be interesting to see what you're looking at to judge the breed as a whole.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby flitecontrol » Sun May 19, 2019 9:34 pm

Highlander wrote:As much as respect DD they are a bit slow and close range dogs for my taste. At least the most of the DDs I saw were like that.


Not sure what your taste in range is, but there are DD/GWP that can really get out there.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Sun May 19, 2019 10:46 pm

"Really get out there." No kidding. Way out there.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun May 19, 2019 11:36 pm

Highlander wrote:
But the thing is my gf, who is willing to share the cost of the pup and travel, likes wired hair breeds. She does not know anything about upland but she is very interested. “Unfortunately”, the cuteness of a pup is important for her... :)
That’s why we started looking into this breed.

This led me thinking of bearded dogs. As much as respect DD they are a bit slow and close range dogs for my taste. At least the most of the DDs I saw were like that. The griffs are too furry for so they are out.
So I reckon pp may be a good medium between EP and DD. Now I do know that this could be a very silly assumption but I thought if they have got some EP blood they might be close to the dogs of my taste.
.


Your gf has good taste in dogs at least. The versatile breeds are a ways a way from the EP for sure and if DD's are too close ranging then you won't be happy with the typical PP (who's range can vary but typically not like an EP's). There are fluffy PPs same as very tight coated WPGs. I might be wrong but I've heard that PPs from Europe hunt closer than US dogs. For me I need a dog that will retrieve ducks, hunt quail and sharptail grouse and chukar and get back to the truck at the same time I do. DD's, PP's and WPG's all do that. I'm generalizing a lot.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby AverageGuy » Mon May 20, 2019 7:13 am

If you want a wirehair breed dog which is most apt to have upland bird work which approaches that of an EP certain FT strains of GWPs are the odds on favorite for that. You will sacrifice nose to the ground methodical on leash blood tracking in those strains in order to get a more hard going bird search.

My GWP is not purely one of those as he is line bred on a German line Stud dog which is his grandfather both top and bottom, with some winning FT strain GWPs from Canada in the mix. I would describe him as a busy medium range dog. In semi-open terrain with many likely objectives within eyesight he ranged out to 277 yards in our run yesterday morning. In more open country he has gone out over 500 yards but is more typically in the 200-300 yard range in open country, hunting on a run and showing excellent intelligence on hunting to likely objectives and using the wind to his advantage. On a side note, without GPS, all will dramatically overestimate the range their dogs are hunting at. And many characterize their dog's range in terms of its occasional maximum vs it's representative average.

I took this video a week ago. I am partially zoomed in and the pace shown here is representative as is hunting to the heavier cover in the draws where the water runs, the cover grows much thicker and ranker and the pheasants are more commonly found vs all the surrounding terrain where they are not commonly found. There is alot more to a good bird dog than range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxFscvOYUv0

He finished checking out that draw and headed over the hill towards the next likely spot. Note the twice sideways glance looking back to see if I am coming behind. The dog wants to hunt with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HonjxkFLnIM

Had some beautiful point and relocate work on a cocky rooster pheasant on that run. I will take as much style and flashy birdwork as I can get while still having a dog who can find a dead/wounded whitetail when I need him to and retrieve a pile of waterfowl from ice water without hesitation or freezing to death. Avoiding 45 minutes of rolling out cockleburs at the end of hunt is appreciated more now having done too much of it in the past. That presents some challenges when sorting through dogs and litters. Even more so when breeding them. People who say otherwise are drinking the koolaid.

Image

Image

The EPs used to develop the PP were those in Europe not the US and the PPs I observe do not run anywhere near as fast and big as many US based EPs do. Which makes sense to me as the American EPs have been diverged considerably from those in Europe.

Of GWPs, DDs, PPs and WPGs, the DDs are the most consistent in performance (for their stated objectives/purposes) and coat in my observation. (and yet the DDs certainly have variation as well.) Whether the consistent performance of a DD is what a person is looking for is a different matter. If you do not desire, use and appreciate the total German view of versatility including blood work you will likely look elsewhere. For upland bird work and waterfowl retrieving there are several breeds which can give good DDs a run for their money and more is what I observe.

In all cases the Sire/Dam of a litter are going to be the best predictors.

The GWPs have a whole segment of AKC fur babies which have nothing to do with the hunting lines and it is easy to steer clear of them but also necessary to do so to make sure you get what you want. PPs and WPGs are both suffering from growing popularity and exhibit a wide range of quality and coats as well in my observation.

Tap into the right litter in a DD, GWP, PP or WPG and we can all turn out a nice finished dog. But the task of finding the right litter is not all the same across those breeds with the WPG being the most challenging.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Mon May 20, 2019 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Mon May 20, 2019 9:21 am

A good read for those interested is, Sigismund Freiherr von Zedlits-Neukirch and the Pudelpointer, by Ria Horter. A Google search might produce this document. I got my copy from Bob Farris a few years back and probably have it saved in an e-mail so if you can't find it, I may be able to as I don't generally delete anything dog related from my e-mails.

I bought a Des Chien dog (WPG) a few years back and sold to a guy in Idaho. One day the owner was hunting with a friend who owned an EP and both dogs were wearing tracking collars. At the end of the day when comparing distances traveled by each dog, the boot polishing Griff outran the EP by two miles. I hunted with this dog along the Oregon side of Brownlee Res. when he was a pup for about an hour and he was an honest 400 yard dog if the terrain permitted. My Shingobee Lake dog was kind of a slouch, her range was more like 250/300 yards with frequent check-ins to demonstrate cooperation.

Like Bruce said, DD, GWP, PP, WPG all turn out nice finished dogs. They are all more similar to one another than what many may think. Again what Bruce said, there aren't enough good WPG's to satisfy the market for the breed. If I wanted a pup next spring from a particular litter, I'm already too late.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby AverageGuy » Mon May 20, 2019 9:35 am

Yes but my concern would be encouraging anyone to buy a WPG expecting to get a consistent 400 yard dog which will consistently out pace the average EP. Ain't gonna happen very often.

https://riahorter.com/index_htm_files/e ... gewald.pdf
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby orhunter » Mon May 20, 2019 9:48 am

AG: Yup, that be true. Only mentioned it to show there are no absolutes when assessing a breeds field performance. Ya don't know what you have till you put them on the ground.
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby AverageGuy » Mon May 20, 2019 10:10 am

I caught an episode of American Gun Dog awhile back with Bob Farris hunting his PPs with Harley on quail and pheasants. You would not have mistaken his PPs pace/style of work for the EPs I have hunted with. Look alot like the good GWPs and DDs I have hunted with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s84gISOvfE

The juiced up FT winning strains of GWPs are the only wirehair breed dogs I have seen that would have some consistency approaching a good EP's style of work and it most often comes with tradeoffs in other areas of traditional Vdog work. You do see some AFC, DC, VC GWPs around however. You could find a lot of GSPs with a predictable style of work approaching that of an EP but none with a beard ...
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Re: The relationship between Pudelpointers and English Point

Postby ryanr » Mon May 20, 2019 10:54 am

AverageGuy wrote:I caught an episode of American Gun Dog awhile back with Bob Farris hunting his PPs with Harley on quail and pheasants. You would not have mistaken his PPs pace/style of work for the EPs I have hunted with. Look alot like the good GWPs and DDs I have hunted with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s84gISOvfE

The juiced up FT winning strains of GWPs are the only wirehair breed dogs I have seen that would have some consistency approaching a good EP's style of work and it most often comes with tradeoffs in other areas of traditional Vdog work. You do see some AFC, DC, VC GWPs around however. You could find a lot of GSPs with a predictable style of work approaching that of an EP but none with a beard ...


Yeah, I think the OP's notion that PPs have more run in them than GWP/DD is off base. On average there just isn't much difference at all between them in that regard.
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