Meet Tess

[AverageGuy]

Good question.

I have trained for and passed the UT before I pursued putting blind retrieve handling skills on my dogs because I wanted them to learn to search independently first. That is what recovers downed birds where I hunt.

The handling I have taught my GWPs has been pretty basic. Stop, look at me for direction, then go back or over, per the direction I indicate. The combination of that and independent search has been very powerful in actual hunting.

I do think the retriever game has elements of control that I do not want to pursue until I have fully developed the independent aspects of my young dogs' search on land and water first.

As far as NAHRA goes you would be into the Senior level before you encountered a degree of control that brings much risk of interfering with independent Duck Search, in my view. Which gives you a lot of work/training and testing that can be pursued e.g. Started, Hunter, Intermediate. Which is another reason I like NAHRA.

[Highlander]

Thank you gentlemen.

I think I got the idea why their (the retriever world) way of handling the dog seem efficient.
I am really impressed their way of sending dog in almost perfect line to the object. Their blind retrieve work is maybe 3 times longer than what I have seen at NAVHDA (50-60 yards).
I think those breeds are more naturally predisposed to do those long distance markings and lines.

What I was impressed with was how eager they expect that command, be it whistle or hand, how perfectly they execute it.
However, if a dog stops the search in anticipation of a command during the UT test and you give it to him, you will lose a point.

I feel a V-dog duck work is more independent then ones I saw in the videos, while their blind or marked revivers are longer.

I want to overlay that kind of sophistication onto my dog's independent duck search but I am afraid it might be a bit too early.
She is good at 60-70 yard blind retrieves, but then she brakes it starts active search. I started sing white buckets to get her do longer blinds but I thought it would make her to depended on a visual cues.

[GONEHUNTIN']

Thank you gentlemen.

I think I got the idea why their (the retriever world) way of handling the dog seem efficient.
I am really impressed their way of sending dog in almost perfect line to the object. Their blind retrieve work is maybe 3 times longer than what I have seen at NAVHDA (50-60 yards).
I think those breeds are more naturally predisposed to do those long distance markings and lines.

What I was impressed with was how eager they expect that command, be it whistle or hand, how perfectly they execute it.
However, if a dog stops the search in anticipation of a command during the UT test and you give it to him, you will lose a point.

I feel a V-dog duck work is more independent then ones I saw in the videos, while their blind or marked revivers are longer.

I want to overlay that kind of sophistication onto my dog's independent duck search but I am afraid it might be a bit too early.
She is good at 60-70 yard blind retrieves, but then she brakes it starts active search. I started sing white buckets to get her do longer blinds but I thought it would make her to depended on a visual cues.

You have to understand Highlander that a teaching a retriever to handle and teaching a V dog to handle are, or can be, two VERY different animals. Some, if not most, V dog's HATE rote work and HATE to handle. Rote work bores them and they are too independent to accept handling. When teaching lines they will tend to be very resentful and sometimes walk on the lines. The last one I had would do walking baseball which is how I honed her handling. A VDD judge told me he had never seen any V dog handle like that one. The only way I salvaged her was to teach her lines and hand signals on a T then IMMEDIATELY go to walking baseball. Very few dogs resent walking baseball. It's challenging and fun for them.

All that being said, I don't believe there is a V dog on this continent that will handle even as well a a Qualifing retriever. You just don't get that fine degree of handling, lining, and response, or even close to it, you do with a retriever. No should you. They aren't made for that.

[AverageGuy]

They ran the Intermediate dogs with the Started and Hunter dogs at the last NAHARA test I was at.

So I was standing there listening to the Judge describe to the handlers the land blind he had setup. He mentioned there was a cross wind blowing and said he was not going to be real impressed if all the handler did was get their dog downwind of the bird and let their nose bring them in from there.

I said, "That is exactly how I handle my GWPs" and we laughed. It works and that is all I care about.

[AverageGuy]

Ran across this just now. Fits well with the conversation and why I do things in the order that I do.

[GONEHUNTIN']

Ran across this just now. Fits well with the conversation and why I do things in the order that I do.

That is a great quote and it took the Major years to discover it. He made the "Escalon Shuffle" famous. Perhaps in later years his dog's ran harder but most considered them electric pigs. That wasn't the case with the famous trainers that worked under his tutelage, perhaps the most successful being Judy Aycock. It wasn't until the 80's that dog's started running hard again. If we had had the variable intensity collars we have today, things would have been much different.

[orhunter]

Makes a ton of sense. I think many of us have said the same thing using different words.

[GONEHUNTIN']

For those that don't know, Rex was referring to retrievers. That was all he trained. Very, very, few trainers are capable of attaining both speed and the type of precision Rex was referring to retrieving breed or not. In fact, I truly doubt it's possible in the V dog's. They simply aren't bred for it. I even tried running the dog I have now as a pup on white bowls with a treat in each bowl, a nine, 180 degree line drill. Even this one got bored in short order. Or full.

[AverageGuy]

What I found specifically applicable about the quote in my mind, was to Highlander's question as to how handling affected Duck Search.

My response was I want to fully develop a young dog's search on land and water before I move to working on more directional handling control as to where the dog goes to search.

Seemed to me the quote fit well with how I have approached things.

I want to get first things first. A dog has to have independent drive to recover wild birds in actual hunting situations. Unlike hunt tests the birds are commonly not dead and have moved away from where they initially came to ground is one obvious reason why. The cover is very commonly much taller and ranker than that where FTs and Hunt Tests are conducted. Line of sight between dog and handler is very commonly much more limited, so a dog looking for direction vs searching on its own is not going to be nearly effective.

Getting the dog into the right area of fall makes that independent search a lot more efficient and swift than leaving it entirely up to the dog, which is why overlaying some handling control yields the best of both worlds in my view.

I never expect to get a GWP to equal what I see the best labs doing in FTs, Hunt Tests.

I absolutely expect my GWPs to rival or exceed most any breed in actual downed birds recovered while hunting. I don't loose very many birds across a lot of work each season with my dogs.

[GONEHUNTIN']

I think your answer is correct, but Rex's quote can be very misleading and when you speak of PRECISION, would rarely apply to any V dog, regardless of breed. Just wanted to clarify what Rex said. Many of us consider Rex to be the father of modern day sporting dog training.

[crackerd]

Gotta be a harmonic convergence of circumstances for it to happen, GH - and the "white bowls" gotta be alive, or recently deceased, and gotta have hundreds and hundreds of 'em as sight "blind" ( ) opportunities over time. Had that 20 years ago and have it today for my Labs, just not as readily available as back in the day for a V-dog and Boykins.

IMG_2076.jpg (689.99 KiB) Viewed 186 times

Still every little bit helps, in addition to the variable intensity collar and the step-by retriever program. All that white made 'em right for "running" blinds. By the way a couple of (very) successful retriever pros, even with the latter two assets as above available to them today, still have a fair share of "Escalon shufflers" on blinds. Deadening to watch, but somehow the dogs' marking ability all but completely quashes the pokey going on blinds in the judges' books.

For those that don't know, Rex was referring to retrievers. That was all he trained. Very, very, few trainers are capable of attaining both speed and the type of precision Rex was referring to retrieving breed or not. In fact, I truly doubt it's possible in the V dog's. They simply aren't bred for it. I even tried running the dog I have now as a pup on white bowls with a treat in each bowl, a nine, 180 degree line drill. Even this one got bored in short order. Or full.

MG

[GONEHUNTIN']

Yup MG, we used to say that Rex's dogs walked, but they walked straight. Tough customers to beat. Also, one of my real complaints about judging in that I NEVER saw a judge mark a dog down for lack of style. It's tough to beat a walking dog with a rocket sled. It'd also be interesting to know when Rex wrote that quote since I never saw one of his dog's that was really stylish.

[J D Patrick]

Tess got passes 3 and 4 this weekend to complete her NAHRA Started Retriever Title.

awesome - congrats