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Re: GWP

Postby orhunter » Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:17 pm

I guess my appreciation for the breed began with McNally's Super Ali. Didn't realize how such a high powered hunting dog could also become your best buddy with no effort what so ever. So sad when she passed, think about her all the time. The important thing is how much Kelly values temperament in his dogs. Another good example is Tater. Every bit as sweet as Ali and those fortunate enough to have pups from either dog are probably enjoying something similar. Ya gotta love the Wirehairs.
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Re: GWP

Postby gusto » Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:22 pm

[quote="orhunter"]I guess my appreciation for the breed began with McNally's Super Ali. Didn't realize how such a high powered hunting dog could also become your best buddy with no effort what so ever. So sad when she passed, think about her all the time. The important thing is how much Kelly values temperament in his dogs. Another good example is Tater. Every bit as sweet as Ali and those fortunate enough to have pups from either dog are probably enjoying something similar. Ya gotta love the Wirehairs.[/quote]

I actually did the ear tattoos for that litter. My dad had a littermate to his dog, a stone cold hunting machine. Good to hear that Bonepoint is still keeping that blood going.
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Re: GWP

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:17 pm

Ali was my Spud dog's grandmother and Tater is his Dam. He had a good day today on bobwhites...
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Re: GWP

Postby Highlander » Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:51 am

I looked Mr. Ryan McNally's kennel and I ended up on Claddagh Kennel website.
The owner of that kennel runs a podcast called the bird dog babe. Cortney is her name I think.
Maybe those dogs will make more sense to gopaks?
Some cool Alliance dogs.
http://claddaghkennel.com/

I am less familiar with the Alliance dogs, but I saw some of her dogs have Zeffiro's blood.
Zeffiro is (hope he is still around) an Italian hunter who did not like how the Italian GWP club was turning the Drathaars into pure field dogs with an emphases on speed and light frame. He sold all his GWP's went to Germany and directly imported pups. Started his kennel Del Zeffiro and tested the dogs only in JGHV system. And for decades he was only one who was breeding and testing dogs in that system outside of Germany and Austria (apart from VDD-GNA in the US). He was able to developed his own, distinct lines of DD, is some was more refined than the ones is Germany. Especially in terms of style and gait. He got a breeder award from VDD and gained quite a few fallowers.

One thing is that the English pointer also brought black color in GSP and GWP. Before that it was somewhat unnatural color. It also brought relative light bone structure as well. Full black pointes have noticeably light structure than the ones with brown or yellows spots.
They also brought a dark, very brown eyes in the those breeds.
Unfortunately, lately the black dogs came into fashion and were bred more than they should have even been. The VDD got on top of that and restricted crossbreeding of full brown and full black dogs. Not so much the shorthair club and that why you see dogs with such a dark eyes that is impassable to read the facial expression.

Todays this day, even when I admit to myself that a versatile dog is more suitable for me, I still have a soft spot for EP. Watching them working in vast, open areas brings me enormous joy. No breed can come closer to them in that specific environment. Maybe English Setter is an exception.
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Re: GWP

Postby KJ » Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:51 pm

Fun discussion. I will try to touch on a few items.

The German Wirehair Alliance is a group of breeders working together to produce a sound genetic pool for fellow breeders interested in the complete dog, and of course, those looking for a performance hunting dog. Really trying to produce dogs with generations of quality wild bird hunting dogs bred to a common standard and eliminate "holes" in pedigrees, that ultimately lead to poor prepotency when the dog is bred. There is still plenty of variation of dog "type" within the group of breeders based on location, species of birds hunted, and personal preference.

I wouldn't say there are "a lot" of field trial dogs behind most of the GWA pedigrees, though. I probably have as much field trial influence as any of them, but still have less field trial lines in our dogs from 15 year ago - for a few different reasons. One reason is, there really aren't as many hard core field trialers in the breed as there used to be 20+ years ago.

White dogs? Some are just a result of a combined pair of recessive genes as fuzznut explained, which does happen. White alone doesn't mean it came from a pointer. Others are probably a result of "if it walks like a duck......". Pretty sure a few lines had some pointer or field trial GSP mixed in at some point, but not a lot of those dogs being ran today. Again, that is just a personal guess without any proof.

Heat tolerance? GWPs won't take the heat like a GSP, pointer, setter, etc. It's impossible to get a dog that performs perfectly on both ends of the temperature spectrum and I usually try to put out dogs somewhere in the middle. One thing if for sure, a well conditioned dog is your best shot at performing at all temperature levels. The dogs from strong German lines do seem more heat intolerant, but are also tougher cold water dogs. I would agree that the field trial lines tolerate heat better. While coat density, length, and color all play a role, so does skin thickness and how effortless the dog moves. The dark (especially black dogs) soak up the sun, which doesn't help with heat tolerance. And then, sometimes some dogs just tolerate heat better or worse than you might expect for other unknown reasons. We have had some fantastic cold water duck dogs that didn't have much more than a GSP coat, and some dogs with longer coats that tolerated the heat well.

On a few additional topics mentioned.......
The best field trial dog? I haven't seen any field trials in the last 10 years, so not really qualified to speak on the topic, but John Williams in Bend, OR has done as much winning as anybody. He doesn't breed his dogs much, though.

Salty Pete v Rahnhaus was not a white dog, but he did produce some white dogs. Pete was from mish-mash pedigree, which could be seen in the variety of the pups he threw, but he did also produce a lot of really, really nice dogs. His best pups were as good as anything out there and there were quite a few of them. In addition to just good all around talent, it was their really intense, stylish point that stood out. In addition to being great wild bird hunting dogs, his pups did very well in NAVHDA, NSTRA, and even a FC or two.

I think Ryan McNally had some really nice dogs up there. I know I really liked our McNally's Super Ali NA I, UT I. She would have made a nice little field trial dog, too. As orhunter stated, just a great combination of a high-powered hunting dog and family pet. It seemed that breeding she was out of produced a lot of nice dogs. Ryan won a lot of all-breed field trials with several full siblings. One went to Utah and became a VC. Matt Solt's NFC Wired West True Grit NA I, UT I was a grandson of this dog, VC McNally's Calahoo. We got a nice litter out of Matt's dog Duke when we bred him back to an Allie daughter. I wished I had picked up a few more dogs from Ryan. He got out of breeding about 10 years ago. I heard from him last year as we was looking to pick up a dog as a personal hunting dog.

Just a fun story to show the horsepower on those dogs....
Allie's last litter produced a really nice male, Max. Bone Point's Magnus NA I, UT I owned by Brett Wood in Utah. He was very similar to Allie and could have also been a great field trial prospect. Just a real hard running, powerful going dog with a lot of style, and a monster duck search. Also just a great pet and as calm as they get in the house.

Brett had Max out chukar and hun hunting a couple weeks ago, which he hasn't done much of this year. Max turns 10 next month. Max put in over 80 miles in 2-1/2 days of hunting and had several finds on coveys at over 600 yards, including some sage grouse at 720 yds. He also had one cast at over a mile. And this was basically a (near) 10 year old dog that was pulled off the couch after doing a few grouse and pheasants hunts this year.
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Re: GWP

Postby orhunter » Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:08 pm

The DD has a checkered past due to WWII. Craig in his book, makes it pretty clear the breed isn't what many believe it to be. "they used almost anything with a tail." It appears some of it is documented as he infers Weim's, GLP's and DK's being openly used. Probably some undocumented breeding going on as well. I read somewhere the GSD was a candidate. Using the DK doesn't mean a whole lot as it's one of the foundation breeds so no harm done, unless. The use of solid color dogs Like Highlander brought up was clearly a mistake. (my opinion) Black to a lesser degree. Again, my opinion as I like the black dogs. I wish the GWP came with yellow eyes consistently and the WPG as well. My previous Griff had gorgeous yellow eyes and although my current dog is related, she has orange.

I've wondered if there are any "original" lines of DD's that have been located through genetic testing? Genetic testing is so common these days it seems prudent to look into it. It also seems prudent to do some back breeding to foundation dogs in some cases. Griffons and Pudelpointers have come a long way since the late 1800's and might be of significant value. The Stichelhaar (CF) as well. I'm just one of those "what if" kind of guys.
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Re: GWP

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:21 am

And Max would be Spud's Sire :D.

Black and Braun are not restricted in the VDD because of any alleged linage to a black pointer but rather because they are dominant genetic colors and if used with other Black or Braun dogs will then become the only color those crosses will produce into the future. It has to be managed using crosses with liver roan dogs to avoid that color dominance. Which then places some limitations on how excellent but Black or Braun colored dogs can benefit the breed vs a liver roan dog which has no such limitations.

I could buy a nice GWP puppy once a week. The breed is strong and doing well.

I currently have one dog from Bone Point and another with predominately Claddagh genetics.

If I was looking for pup right now I would run back to Bone Point, for both the genetics and the ease of doing business with.
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Re: GWP

Postby Highlander » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:22 am

Thanks KJ for such lengthy post.
You, the chukar guys, are really taking the dog's endurance to a different level.
Have you had your dogs on ruffed grouse? I know there are some grouse in the eastern WA and OR.
I wonder how those dogs behave on the grouse...

@orhunter
The use of solid color dogs Like Highlander brought up was clearly a mistake. (my opinion) Black to a lesser degree. Again, my opinion as I like the black dogs. I wish the GWP came with yellow eyes consistently and the WPG as well. My previous Griff had gorgeous yellow eyes and although my current dog is related, she has orange.


Well... I wouldn't call a mistake, but the "problem" is that, as @AverageGuy said, it's dominant and if not careful it will takeover the breed.
I don't remember seeing so many full black and dark black roan DK's 10 years ago, but now they are quite a few. The DD guys are cautious about that issue.
The full black dog is not problem, problem is what it comes with it; shark eyes and relatively lighter bones.
I can't read a dog if I can't see her eyes and expression.

One interesting thing about the black color and lighter bone structure. If you compare GM and DL they are quite similar. They used be one breed 110 years ago.
What sets them apart, in terms of there look, is that the GM is relatively lighter than the DL on average.
The GM's head tends to be lighter, more pointy as well.
After the split of the clubs there were at least 8-10 sanctioned breeding with with the DL. One was specifically about improving the bone structure.
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Re: GWP

Postby orhunter » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:35 pm

Black is only a mistake when breeding black to black. Strictly forbidden in the DD world. Black to black and solid to solid, destroys genetic diversity.
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Re: GWP

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:12 pm

Highlander wrote:Thanks KJ for such lengthy post.
You, the chukar guys, are really taking the dog's endurance to a different level.
Have you had your dogs on ruffed grouse? I know there are some grouse in the eastern WA and OR.
I wonder how those dogs behave on the grouse...


My Bone Point dog behaves really well on Ruffed Grouse. His littermate sister hunts Ruffed Grouse alot and is excellent on them.

Image

And Doves, Teal, Ducks, Geese, Chukars, Huns, Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Sage Grouse, Bobwhites, Pheasants, Fur, all this season.

Image
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Re: GWP

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:05 pm

Ole Spud laying down a run yesterday. We were looping back to the truck with the wind at my back. He runs to the downwind end of that ticket, checks it out and then continues on running crossways to the wind, which keeps it in his nose as he runs. So much more effective than a dog working straight into the wind when hunting big cover like that. Pure genetics and experience. Part of his 14 points on 16 pheasants run yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXl5yOGkBV8
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Re: GWP

Postby JONOV » Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:51 am

KJ wrote:
White dogs? Some are just a result of a combined pair of recessive genes as fuzznut explained, which does happen. White alone doesn't mean it came from a pointer. Others are probably a result of "if it walks like a duck......". Pretty sure a few lines had some pointer or field trial GSP mixed in at some point, but not a lot of those dogs being ran today. Again, that is just a personal guess without any proof.


I was looking through the VDD's Armbruster edition of their newsletter. There is a dog in there that's notably lighter than the rest. Judging from the picture, I'd call him "liver and white ticked" in English. Not sure how gray the schimmel has to be.
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