FF in 4 Days

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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Buck Dancer wrote:Evan works with Labs and teaches the ear pinch while he sits on a chair or bucket to save his back. Evan states that the final force fetch (after hold is solid) can be done in a few days with some dogs and while others will take several weeks. He also mentioned in the DVD that pointer trainers most often use the to hitch and table.


Well, owning several pudelpointers, I can safely say doing a FF on them is not for beginners. Sure, labs are tough as steel and are hard to screw up, but if you keep that stuff up on your PP it may not ever speak to you again. Bob Farris does not FF his dogs; rather does a "trained retrieve" or has a pro do a FF. Bob says he doesn't have the heart for it - read his book or call him up and talk to him about it. So Evan Graham says pointer guys "use a toe hitch". Really? At least he knows his program doesn't work on pointing breeds!

Sorry for being so blunt, but I'd respectfully suggest you go about this another way. I'm sure there are people out there who have successfully FF'd pudelpointers following Graham but, frankly, pudelpointers are too sweet a dog to subject to his approach.

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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:41 pm

I think that most of you feel that to FF a dog you really have to hurt a dog. You do not. Best I can describe it to you is that it's a feeling of discomfort. Too much pressure and many dogs will cave. Think of it in terms of yourself: if you're in too much pain you can't perform a task. A dog is the same. If you're dog is screaming it's far to much pressure. Like finding the correct level of an ecollar.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Doc E » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:07 pm

Buck Dancer wrote:
Doc E wrote:
If you followed "SmartFetch" properly, there is NO WAY your dog could
" dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back".
What it should actually have needed was for you to follow the instructions.
.


I know that you are a know it all, so why is there no way he could dive bomb to the floor and roll on his back when holding the collar with three fingers while pinching?


If you hold the collar correctly, then why aren't you strong enough to keep a dog upright ? - - - - - Let alone correct ear holding.

ps --- I actually do know it all ---- the problem is that I can't always recall it.

.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:52 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Anyhow, here is a picture of the correct method to hold the ear. They can't turn out, they can't turn in, they can't bite. You have total control Image


Thanks for the photo GH, never really considered holding the ear on the opposite side from me. I think another key is making sure you have the collar snug. And so far from what I've seen you certainly can't hurt things by spending MORE than enough time laying the foundation before you ever do the ear pinch. My first FF'd dog was difficult (he's difficult to begin with, tremendous prey drive though) but with my second wirehair things were much smoother and I learned to incorporate a light gum pinch for drops when laying the foundation and like you I think it really helps the dog make the transition much easier and quicker when ear pinch is finally applied. With my second dog we did successfully go from ear pinch to e-collar overlay being completed within 4 days but we had already spent at least a month or or so just on foundation work. The notion that the entire process uses pain or that the dog is left to figure out entirely on their own is just not true.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:03 am

Also, if you notice, that ears is bent over the buckle or in this case a special training collar I use. If you push the ear against something hard, you don't hurt the ear like just rubbing it with your thumbnail does. The advantage in holding the ear like that is that the dog can't turn in and bite your wrist because you stop it with the ear on the collar. It can't turn out for the same reason. I have ff'd hundreds of dog's and never been bitten when holding the ear this way.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Buck Dancer » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:48 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
Well, owning several pudelpointers, I can safely say doing a FF on them is not for beginners. Sure, labs are tough as steel and are hard to screw up, but if you keep that stuff up on your PP it may not ever speak to you again. Bob Farris does not FF his dogs; rather does a "trained retrieve" or has a pro do a FF. Bob says he doesn't have the heart for it - read his book or call him up and talk to him about it. So Evan Graham says pointer guys "use a toe hitch". Really? At least he knows his program doesn't work on pointing breeds!

Sorry for being so blunt, but I'd respectfully suggest you go about this another way. I'm sure there are people out there who have successfully FF'd pudelpointers following Graham but, frankly, pudelpointers are too sweet a dog to subject to his approach.



Agree

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Are you really a buck dancer? Cool! I'm heading to the national fiddle contest in Weiser, Idaho, tomorrow.



Wrong Buck, Buck Dancer is my porn name.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby mastercaster » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:42 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Anyhow, here is a picture of the correct method to hold the ear. They can't turn out, they can't turn in, they can't bite. You have total control Image


I force fetched my griff using Smartfetch and used the ear pinch like you did in your photo but I didn't place the collar in front of her other ear like it looks like you did in the photo. Should I have?
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:30 am

The photo is misleading. The collar is behind BOTH ears. We're it in front of one, the dog could slip the collar.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:42 am

Here ia picture of just the collar grip. Three fingers go UNDER the collar strap. The Index finger holds the ear over the buckle or nub. The thump pinches the ear. This is the hold used by virtually all professional trainers. It's important to note the collar. That spike on there is a golf cleat filed down and blunted. It is there to apply LESS AND MEASURED pressure to the ear, not more. Only a sadist would use it to inflict unnecessary pain.

Image
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby mastercaster » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:02 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The photo is misleading. The collar is behind BOTH ears. We're it in front of one, the dog could slip the collar.


I was wondering if the other ear just happened to be out of site because the dog's head was slightly tilted downward. Not sure if it was Evan Graham or Jon Hann (The Perfect Retrieve DVD) but it was mentioned that in the past he has had to put the e collar on top of one of the ear flaps because it's a more sensitive area.

I think he said he sometimes has to do that with a real head strong, hard headed dog with real thick neck hair. I guess there must be a few out there. Kind of makes sense, though, if even the longest available prongs on the collar aren't making good contact with the skin.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:29 pm

Now you're talking about electric collars and yes, that is true. People get confused on why a trainer trains one way and an owner another. The owner raises the pup from a sprout and because of the bond less pressure is usually required. A Pro gets a dog at 10 months fully loaded with problems and he has 4 months to diagnose and solve them. Big difference.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Kiger2 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:44 pm

Gonehuntin,

1)If you only use mild pressure, why on earth would the dog want to bite you?

2)So you are saying non pros shouldnt have to train like pros, so why should they follow a pro program like Smartfetch?

3) You use the jowl pinch prior to ear pinch for Fetch. Clearly not a part of Smartfetch. Actually more akin to Dobbs using the ear pinch for hold, then the toe hitch for fetch, you are using pressure for hold prior to fetch. So would you reccomend a first timer use your method or Grahams?

Just curious?
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:04 am

Kiger2 wrote:Gonehuntin,

1)If you only use mild pressure, why on earth would the dog want to bite you?

2)So you are saying non pros shouldnt have to train like pros, so why should they follow a pro program like Smartfetch?

3) You use the jowl pinch prior to ear pinch for Fetch. Clearly not a part of Smartfetch. Actually more akin to Dobbs using the ear pinch for hold, then the toe hitch for fetch, you are using pressure for hold prior to fetch. So would you reccomend a first timer use your method or Grahams?

Just curious?
e

1). Some dogs will bite from any pressure, some from fear. I just never take the chance.

2). Because a Smart Fetch is about as mild a training program as there is. As I've said a thousand times, pressure is modified for each dog.

3). Grahams method and simply add the jowl pinch. That's how I do it.
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Re: Buck Dancer

Postby Doc E » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:43 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Here ia picture of just the collar grip. Three fingers go UNDER the collar strap.

Image


So, how does "Buck Dancers" dog "dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back"
if the collar is being held correctly ?
Buck Dancer either isn't doing it correctly or he's a muscular wimp.
..
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Re: Buck Dancer

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:13 am

Doc E wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Here ia picture of just the collar grip. Three fingers go UNDER the collar strap.

Image


So, how does "Buck Dancers" dog "dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back"
if the collar is being held correctly ?
Buck Dancer either isn't doing it correctly or he's a muscular wimp.
..


My thoughts as well.
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