Airedales hunting

[bill10979]

I was on a neat site recently and saw a homepage of Redline Airedales-which is a particular line of Airedales. There were pics of Dales baying Coyotes and trapped Bobcats. I couldnt help think that if it were my dogs-crazy DDs-they wouldnt be Baying, they would be fighting-they usually charge in on large coons or cats-the male has killed a coyote adolescent-maybe 6-7mo old w/no problem. Big Coons/ feral cats same thing. They do not bay yet-I had hoped to try them out on Boar this Spring but my bitch came up lame and was rested for several weeks, and it got too hot for my liking to run the mountains of Tennessee. I dont say this to 1 up anyone, these dales were obviously smart hunting dogs. Is this normal? Are my dogs charging in for a kill foolhardy, reckless, or just pure courageous. I know that Hicntry is the resident Airedale expert, I would like any input on hunting this type of furred game, and whether his Dales usually charge in to kill or bay naturally.
thanks

[blueblood]

The guys that hound hunt here in Idaho use the Dale for attack dogs only if that helps.

[bill10979]

I bet you guys are right. These airedales probably got whacked a few times and learn to pick their moments to "go in" when they attack whereas mine just go in! Worst mine had was a coon climbing on their heads chewing on em until they could shake off and regrip. Before we pig hunt I am gonna have em bay a few in a pen so we dont have a disaster, even w/vest. The site I was on was keyword: Redline Airedales, if your interested.

[bill10979]

I stand corrected. My DD bitch jumped a large feral cat-looked like a Maine Coon Cat-Big- had the cat bayed in a pine tree on the ground but too much brush for her to "go in". She was baying, I ran over and the cat took off. Now the chase was on. She caught it, rolled it, I was really impressed with her. She prefers to catch on the ground giving chase until she catches as opposed to frontal assault-whereas the Male doesnt care-he just goes for it, front or back. He is larger-bigger head and mouth. They arent as foolhardy as I thought, espercially now that they had some run ins.

[hicntry]

Never saw this thread Bill. Those redlines baying the coyotes are out of AZ. All the coyotes are in traps also. Those are 45 and 50 lb dogs and don't look much like an airedale. I know the breeder. The dogs are to small, snakey heads, and, overall, have no grit in my opinion. They are becoming popular because people are getting to lazy to clip their dogs. These dogs are becoming popular as tolling dogs for coyotes because they don't intimidate the coyotes and they will run from them. I don't own a dog that will stand there and bay a coyote or a bobcat in a bush. 4 of those dogs got on a 45lb peccary. Every one was bit in the arse and back legs. Why, because they were running the other way. Not one suffered any damage in the front. They lost one dog over that peccary. At my site, the two dogs on the back of the flatbed with the 350lb bear, both had the bear by the face and the bear had Winchester by the leg. Winchester was layed up for a couple of months. His foot was broke in two places and you could see every muscle in his leg because you could lift the hide up and put your arm through it. He would have been killed had I not been real close. Winchester was quite a dog. He hunted fairly close and I saved him on every hunt. He feared nothing and was a full contact dog. I have seen him flying through the air too many times when hogs would hook him and throw him. He is bred into every dog in the yard, usually several times. Those redline boys told me that those coyotes were tough so I was going to take three dogs down there and show them tough(making excuses for the baying). They said they had a dog run I could put my three dogs in for a couple of days. They got a little squeamish when I told them I would have to stake the dogs out away from each other because, although they will hunt together, they cannot be penned together. Told them if they had loose dogs around they may want to keep them in the kennel. They have canceled on me twice.

[terryg]

"They got a little squeamish when I told them I would have to stake the dogs out away from each other because, although they will hunt together, they cannot be penned together. Told them if they had loose dogs around they may want to keep them in the kennel. They have canceled on me twice."


PUSSIES!

[hicntry]

Jon, yes the dogs are small. The coyotes in AZ only run about 25bs. Coyotes are caught in a trap attached to a length of chain called a drag. This allows them to leave even though they are caught and they drag the chaim with them. It is used so the coyote doesn't chew his/her foot off. The dogs are used to track the coyote. The trapline is a series of thes trap and chains that are put out. The coyotes can and do cover a fair amount of ground even with the drage.

Terry
The three I was taking are all true alphas. They are not even kept in adjoining pens but they are all penned with two to three other lesser males....just not each other. I lied. Hunter can't be with any males so I keep big alpha bitch with him. Hunter will hunt all day with any of them but he has to be picked up as soon as he is back to the truck. He will not tolerate me touching another dog. I suggested they kennel their loose dogs., to avaid any problems. These males don't take any male as a threat unless he is....the redlines aren't something they would take serious but those little dogs may growl or try to do a butt sniff....that wouldn't be good.....especially if they are a might cranky about being tied out. Their normal answer to most males is to hike their leg on their head....damnedest thing you ever saw. I think they are trying to provock the other dog into making a move because they know they will get their butts kicked if they start a fight.

[Airedale From NY]

Redline Airedales are not a seperate line, they are throwbacks in looks to the old original unimproved dogs. They can and will occur at any time in any Airedale line especially the good hunting lines. There is no difference in grit or ablity in the Redline from any other good hunting Airedale line. The coats on these dogs vary from slick to a trimmed look. Some hunters like them because of their easy to maintain coats and breed especially for it. I have owned and hunted Airedales for many years, every kind of coat and all sizes, I will say it is breeding that makes the dog not the coat or the size.

I think before one goes out and makes a bunch of general statements about certain dogs they should have some experience with them before they go out and spread a bunch of bunk! To make such statements from just a couple of pictures floating around that do not tell the whole story is not fair.

Here is Slick, one of my dogs, 65lbs, done in several large coon, has as much grit as any Airedale I have owned. The only difference in Slick from any of my other dogs is his short coat and that is a fact.


Slick struck and tracked the coon to this log den and went in and got it out the hard way. I would not have expected anything less of him or any of my Airedales regardless of their coat.

[hicntry]

Al, the redlines will track and bay, so will hounds and stock dogs. What separated the airedales was grit. I have yet to see a slick dog with fur in it's mouth that wasn't dead before they took hold. There is a difference in the grit that I have seen but that is what separated the airedale from other breeds. At best, they are a small varmint dog, IMHO.

[matt]

you know Don you are so full of crap it's sad. How long have I known you? 10yrs.?
Say anything to sell your dogs, you have hit a all time low bad mouthing my dogs.
My dogs will hunt more game then yours do and hunt more often then yours, and they can hunt with OTHER dogs. CAN yours?
Your "IMHO" isn't worth the paper to wipe with. How many of your dogs go to hunters? Not many. That is a fact!

[hicntry]

First off Matt, I have never mentioned anyone buying a dog from me here in the 5 yrs I have been on this board. I spend a lot of time here because there is a lot to learn regarding training and what bird dogs are about. Now that that is clarified, yes about 10 yrs. That is why your name hasn't been mentioned but now you let the cat out of the bag. In reference to redlines, you are far from the only one that has them. Henry was into them long before you and he is the one that gave them the name redline.

It does seem to me that your boy Martin is the one that started this redlines are best. You told me to leave him alone and haven't said boo since. If Martin wants to mislead people about the redlines being the best, naturally I will speak up for the other side. Go back and read the posts Matt, I never said redlines can't hunt, I said they lacked the grit that made the airedale what it is. That is an objective observation. You have the pictures posted to prove it. But then again, not all mine have the grit that I like either....but 200 to 350lb hogs are one thing, 25lb coyotes are another.

Can I hunt my dogs with others? You know I can't but that is the environment they were raised in, they are not socialized and they are not pets as in house dogs and ride around in the truck dogs.....they are hunting dogs. There are more and more of my dogs doing birds and those "are" hunted with other dogs. Besides Matt, the redlines almost have to be hunted with other dogs and breeds if they are going to produce. Do I sell to a lot of hunters, no, they don't want to pay the price for a dog that may not survive the first hunt. Then again, I will give dogs to real hunters like Bob. It is the wanna be's that don't want to pay for the learning experience. It has been said that the redlines stand a much better chance of surviving. Why, because they lack the grit for the most part.

Now as far as yours hunting more than mine??? That may be true....so they should show me more. Then again,maybe it isn't. I hunted more than you for years with dogs. If you are hunting now, it is because of John Henry. Our drought is over hopefully so I will get out more , but, try to remember....I have to eat what I hunt, you don't. I can only eat so much pork. By the way, maybe you haven't noticed, I have never voiced my obsrvations on the airedale board.....that is because we have been friends for 10 yrs. You should have put a collar on that dink Martin on your own.

[hicntry]

"They can and will occur at any time in any Airedale line especially the good hunting lines."

Since I have a feeling this is not going to end here I will add a little truth to this statement. They used to pop up accasionally...even in show lines, NOT "especially in good hunting lines". They were immediately culled by most because they don't look like an airedale. Now it is not a matter of poping up occasionally. They are breeding specifically for redlines. And that is the rest of the story.

[bill10979]

My experience hound hunting is limited. A few times for Boar and once for bear in NC. There was a mix of dogs used-some even 1/2 Dales 1/2 Black/tan. For this guide in NC, it was enough grit-dogs were good lookin too. Too much grit can get them killed it would seem.
Hicntry, I wonder if there is a use for a smaller, more agile Cur or Dales that can bay but stay out of harms way. If not, Id be curious to know your thoughts and how you hunt, what you expect of a dog. In a pack, would not a mix of dogs-even a Pit catch dog be the ideal or is it preferrable to have a pack consist solely of "do or die" dogs?Do you expect your dogs to catch like the Dogos Ive heard about? In your hunting what is the expected life span of a hunting dog for big game? Do you vest in cooler weather and does it help?
thanks

[hicntry]

Of course there is a use for them Bill. They are using them for tolling coyotes. As I said earlier, they are more of a varmint dog. They can get into tighter places and are more comfortable with that size game. They just are not that big of a dog. These guys are just not satisfied with the fact they can do some things well. They are trying to make a silk puses out of sows ears. The others side is true also, my dogs will never make tolling dogs because they are big and intimidating.. I don't like my dogs catching but they do it sometimes. Smaller hogs 100 to 125lbs, will be ruined if you don't get the dogs quick. The hams, backstraps and shoulders will be bloodshot. I have also spent lots of money at the vets. A good bay job accomplishes the same thing without any injuries. You ask what I expect of my dogs. I expect them to push the game and keep them from running. Much of the time they have to get in and put the teeth to them, generally working opposite sides to keep the game turning and defending. I don't like them hanging on....that is when the get hurt. It doesn't take most long to learn that. When it comes to coyotes, coons and the such, if they stand back and bay, they are of no use to me and are out of here. They will never be able to anchor a 300lb hog and keep him from running. Mind you, there are many little dogs that can because they get in and grab the nut sack and a hig will sit right down and not move. The catch is, they have to at least have enough grit to get close enough to do it. Baying 25lb coyotes and 15lb bobcats from a distance tells me they will never get close enough to something that outweighs them by 6 times to do it. I am objective enough to see all my dogs are not the same. Winchester, Higgins, and Hunter are straight up kill dogs when it comes to small game under 40lbs. They are fast and leathal. They don't all have the same ability to kill as effectively. They crush anything they get hold of. I mentioned dogs that suffer a lot of damage to the hindquarters. These dogs have all been injured. Hogs are rough and don't climb trees. All damage has been in the face, neck, chest, front legs, and front part of the rib cage. Winchester was hooked in the hip once....they were fighting multiple hogs(we killed the four that day in the one picture) That day he was thrown 8 ft in the air, broke the two canines on the right side when he hit the ground, and was severely hooked in the stomach and had to be opened up at vets to see if the intestins were punctured. Matt says, "can I hunt my dogs with other peoples dogs?" Heck no, These guys hunt rough game and they are rough. The funny thing is, every one of these guys will love you to death here at the house.....if I am here. Other people don't want their hounds trying to do what these dogs do and they darn sure don't want them to get in a fight with them. As I said Bill, this is a result in upbringing and environment.
One thing that is a must in a big game dog is the ability to take a licking and do it again the next day. Haven't been able to really see how these redlines react because they keep a safe distance. It isn't because they are excetionally fast as they lead people into believing....it is because they don't get close enough to the game. Make no mistake though, they will jump in a dog fight.....but then again, I have seen lots of dogs that are dog aggressive that won't get near a coon. Dog fights don't show grit.

The thing that bothers me, is that they are selling a bill of goods. They have convinced many newcomers that they are throwbacks to the "old" style. You know how newbies are about anything old....it's gotta be good. What they are doing is selling a bunch of pin headed dogs with downright shiddy coats and no grit as hunting dogs and they have people believing they are getting a great, old style airedale. What would you think if you were told it is a classic DD, no facial hair or hair anywhere for that matter. And you know, the old style were better hunters. You would laugh. The reality is, very few old things are as good as what there is today. It is pipedreams. Old racehorses, racecars, greyhounds, you name it, it is improved today.

Matt made the comment that his dogs will hunt a bigger variety of game than my dogs. That should surprise everyone because my personal dogs are pretty much straight hog dogs. Others use them for just about everything....except tolling coyotes. Not exactly the same as having dogs chasing coyotes and squirrels. Any thing my dogs do, they do it on their own. They don't have to have hounds and curs there to tree bears.

I will take a lot of flack over this thread, but that is life. Just to reiterate, the redlines can hunt, track and all that, it is the grit they fall short in.

[hicntry]

Missed part of your post bill. I never vest. The dogs are free ranging and there is to much heavy brush to get hung on. Besides, it is hot here and the dogs cover a lot of ground. As far as pits....I will never walk a hunting dog around on a leash and point it toward the animal the real hunting dogs have already bayed. What for? the others have it bayed....shoot it. Life expectancy? when it is up it is up. Winchester is 12. He has been chewed up by bears, hooked in the stomach, hips, chest, neck, ribs, legs, and shoulders by hogs. He has been snake bit three times and has pulled and broke canines whle hanging on to hogs. I guess when it is time it is time. What do I expect or what do I like to see?? I always "expect" the worst when I am going to the dogs and I always hope for the best as in a great bay job with no one hurt. I carry staple guns, vet wrap, penecillion, antihistamenes and super glue with me.