Socialization

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Re: Socialization

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:59 pm

You are duck hunting, and the new pond you are hunting has a barrel floating on the edge of the water. Your dog has to walk past it as he enters the water. Does he ignore it, check it out and return to work, or spend an unecessary amount of time making sure it's not a danger? (Similar situation happened with a dog since returned to the breeder)

An extremely confident "bomb proof" dog will ignore it. A well socialized dog will investigate and move on. A poorly socialized dog may not have the mental tools to deal with this situation. Wolves are genetically wired to be suspicious of anything new, many many dogs still have a bit of this trait in them. Socialization helps dogs overcome.

No owner or breeder can foresee every possible situation a dog will face in their lifetime. Socialization gives your dogs the tools to cope and keep working.
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Re: Socialization

Postby licklick » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:00 pm

An extremely confident "bomb proof" dog will ignore it. A well socialized dog will investigate and move on. A poorly socialized dog may not have the mental tools to deal with this situation.

Very good. Except that well socialized dog is likely to ignore it. Because he is socialized. He has related experience from his puppyhood. He knows that empty barrel is neither interesting, nor scary. That there is nothing to investigate.
On the other hand, reaction of not socialized dog is hard to predict, regardless of the level of confidence. Chicken dog may tuck his tail and run, bold dog may start barking at the barrel or investigating. Or the other way around. Or both unsocialized bold and chicken may ignore it. Being poorly socialized makes dog poorly predictable.
Training may help a bit. Command your dog to heel and trained dog should keep at heel, whatever his level of confidence or number of unknown objects around.
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Re: Socialization

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:32 pm

Ignore it is the ideal response however. Startling and barking in a Hunting situation is unacceptable.

I consider barking to be a behavior of a chicken dog. Most aggressive behavior is fear based.
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Re: Socialization

Postby hicntry » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:55 pm

licklick wrote:
An extremely confident "bomb proof" dog will ignore it. A well socialized dog will investigate and move on. A poorly socialized dog may not have the mental tools to deal with this situation.

Very good. Except that well socialized dog is likely to ignore it. Because he is socialized. He has related experience from his puppyhood. He knows that empty barrel is neither interesting, nor scary. That there is nothing to investigate.
On the other hand, reaction of not socialized dog is hard to predict, regardless of the level of confidence. Chicken dog may tuck his tail and run, bold dog may start barking at the barrel or investigating. Or the other way around. Or both unsocialized bold and chicken may ignore it. Being poorly socialized makes dog poorly predictable.
Training may help a bit. Command your dog to heel and trained dog should keep at heel, whatever his level of confidence or number of unknown objects around.


You are right LL, it is impossible to predict how any randomly bred dog is going to react in a given situation. Miss K's bases her assumption on what she has read in studies. The problem with that is studies are based on how the "average" dog will react which may be what.....50%. Even if an individual dog is considered in the "average", that dog may be at the edge of the spectrum of being above or below average.

As far as " most aggressive behavior being fear based " That isn't true except in a general sense. It is mostly a breed thing. Quickest way to check that is to simply see which breeds are listed as unacceptable by the insurance companies. Many of the breeds listed are fear biters, but many are naturally aggressive breeds. An example, terriers, which includes a lot of dogs, are not aggressive out of fear, they are aggressive by nature.....and that brings us to something else you brought up.

Socializing pups, strong or week, to be around other dogs isn't that clear cut. Here is a simplification that goes past socialization. The very social structure of dogs is built around status. An extremely confidant dominate dog usually plays well with most dogs, because he knows they are not a threat to his position and they are not going to challenge him. Socializing in this instance keeps things running smoothly because it has helped them learn how to read other dogs. Take that same confident, dominate dog and put him with and equal, or close to an equal, well, there is no amount of socializing that will make that possible. Everything depends on the dog in question.

Socialization, in many ways , is like the super dog program It is assumed that it does wonders for all dogs, but, the reality is the same as it was for the SDP, no one can say how much any of this does helps an individual pup. You can't use common sense and raise a dog , see how he turned out, and then turn back the clock and socialize the same dog to see if he is different. I think it helps weak dogs immensely. Strong confident dogs, not so much,,,,.but, it won't hurt em either.
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Re: Socialization

Postby licklick » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:19 pm

Take same confident, dominate dog and put him with and equal, or close to an equal,

Bingo! This IS socialization. Let them sort things out between themselves. The earlier you do it, the less damage pups will do to each other. The more often you do it, with different pups, the more proficient they will become at this. They will learn valuable skill, which you can not pass through breeding program or train. And yes, temperament (for which you are breeding) will influence outcome.
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Re: Socialization

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:49 pm

Most of these studies were done by seeing eye dog programs, with litters split into two groups randomly. Without a crystal ball you can't do much better.

You seem to be worried about dogs interacting with other dogs. I'm worried about them interacting with the man-made hustle, bustle and noise of everyday life. Unlike some, I don't need or expect my dogs to be friends with other dogs.
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Re: Socialization

Postby hicntry » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:57 pm

LL, the whole statement was

"Take that same confident, dominate dog and put him with and equal, or close to an equal, well, there is no amount of socializing that will make that possible."

Even after being born and raised with dogs everywhere in their yard, once matured, I could never put two males in the same yard. Wasn't a question of if or when because the war would take place right in the gate......and their aggression had nothing to do with fear. It was the nature of the beast and they had no control over it.
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Re: Socialization

Postby hicntry » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:14 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Most of these studies were done by seeing eye dog programs, with litters split into two groups randomly. Without a crystal ball you can't do much better.

You seem to be worried about dogs interacting with other dogs. I'm worried about them interacting with the man-made hustle, bustle and noise of everyday life. Unlike some, I don't need or expect my dogs to be friends with other dogs.


Ahh, seeing eye dog program's. and can't do much better than that. Wonder how many socialized dogs are turned away from those programs. They got a pretty strict criteria. I kind of doubt they are looking for the the same thing in a dog that most sportsmen/women are looking for. As an aside, I thought one of the joys of having a good bird dog was so that one could get together with friends and their dogs for an afternoon of hunting.

Vman did a great job of explaining how many aspects of socialization are reaped by raising the pups outside. Worth re-reading.
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Re: Socialization

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:48 pm

Vegas was raised outside, definitely some value there and I've seen the benefits firsthand. That still doesn't cover riding in a boat, attending a kids sports game and a hundred other possible situations. Breeders can and should be doing as much as they can. Owners should be proactive about finishing the job.
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Re: Socialization

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:50 pm

As for hunting with other dogs- they better be hunting, not making friends.
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Re: Socialization

Postby licklick » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:19 pm

Lets see...
. I could never put two males in the same yard.

. one of the joys of having a good bird dog was so that one could get together with friends and their dogs for an afternoon of hunting

How hunting with company with dogs is different from being those dogs in the same yard?
. Unlike some, I don't need or expect my dogs to be friends with other dogs

Like most, I dont want your dog's friendship. I want my dog to be able to ignore your dog and expect the same from your dog. This is about the only reason for both my and your dogs socialization.
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Re: Socialization

Postby vman » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:05 am

[quoteThat still doesn't cover riding in a boat, attending a kids sports game and a hundred other possible situations. Breeders can and should be doing as much as they can. Owners should be proactive about finishing the job.][/quote]

Finishing the job? Absolutely. But a Breeder that socializes their pups, rather than pass the buck, prepares the pup for attending the ball games and boats. Its called a CONFIDENT pup.
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Re: Socialization

Postby hicntry » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:29 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:Vegas was raised outside, definitely some value there and I've seen the benefits firsthand. That still doesn't cover riding in a boat, attending a kids sports game and a hundred other possible situations. Breeders can and should be doing as much as they can. Owners should be proactive about finishing the job.


+1
The breeders have the pups when they are most impressionable. The pups should be exposed to as much as possible,,,,mostly on their own IMO.(Without people). It gives them the opportunity to approach and study everything in there environment to their hearts desire. When it comes to socializing with humans, I make sure they see me just enough to WANT to be were I am. This video is 4 week old pups that have never been handled. At this point, We are the last thing of interest to them. Obviously there are different ways of doing things. What I let them do is get totally familiar with their environment first so that I ham not competing with it so I have there total attention when I am out there with them. I spend about 5 minutes with them about every 2 or 3 days to start with. What I want them to do is get to the point that I am the new thing they want to check out. This way they are focused on me. I don't spend so much time with them that they get tired of me. At 27 days old, they have no interest in me or Lynda and have never even been picked up at this point.

Image

When the new owners pick them up the groundwork has been laid and it is up to them to finish the job as Ms K said.
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Re: Socialization

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:13 pm

Hicntry what you describe is a total LACK of socialization.

https://www.facebook.com/ThatDogGeek/vi ... 343530923/
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Re: Socialization

Postby hicntry » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:16 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Hicntry what you describe is a total LACK of socialization.

https://www.facebook.com/ThatDogGeek/vi ... 343530923/


That may be, but, my pups follow me and do what ever I want them to do. Which may beg some to question the benefits socialization vs the lack of socialization. Personally, I consider the lack of socialization is the reason the pups are so tuned into me. The other side of the coin, people pick the pups up, take them home, and are so excited about having a pup that they are in the pups face so much that the pups loose interest in them. You have to give them the space to be dogs....outside rather than a crate. After all, they are dogs and not kids. Remember, they are used to all factors being raised outside as Vman described. The one thing that still intrigues them is me.....because I limit their interaction with me. Socialization with the pups environment is definitely a plus. Socialization with me, or people, has to be handled carefully so we are not going to bore them to death....which is what usually happens when people get ma new pup.
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