Should the VC be a separate event?

North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association Tests

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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby GRIFF MAN » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:00 am

ForestDump wrote:Again, there’s no disdain for NAVHDA. Some things don’t make much sense and I wonder why some things aren’t thought of to be changed but it’s a cool testing system. It requires a lot of a dog.

I say “versatile champion” is an odd title because the champion prefix is reserved for a competition. Testing titles are suffixes because you are not competing against one another it’s a test against a standard. Which is why UT and NA go after a dogs name. Doesn’t really make sense to give a dog a championship just because the test gets harder. And it is a very hard test. But that’s all it is. Everyone has a chance of becoming a “champion” at the event if they do everything right. In true competition just because everyone does everything right doesn’t earn them a blue ribbon or championship. It seems strange that a non competitive venue would even want to give out championships.

I like hunt tests and field trials ans as an admitted newcomer to the NAVHDA game I appreciate everyone who chose to participate in the discussion.



Like I have said before. I do agree some of your thoughts on the Invitational, although I don't agree with them all, are interesting. But now your arguing about the title given to these dogs that achieve this accomplishment. It's a title....you could call them anything it wouldn't make the accomplishment any less impressive. I have seen VC's that I would not want to own or hunt with...but on that specific day they accomplished and "defeated" the standards that they are competing against and that is impressive. Your not looking at the standards as the opponent. All dogs are trained to compete vs. the standards and that is what they are tested against. Word games, are just that games.

So yes! they are Champions !

Again to all posters. When a organisation has standards and rules and they are successful, why change them ? I'm NOT saying this is the case....but over the years usually the only people that crumb Navhda are the ones that can't be successful in it !
Until it's broke, why fix it !

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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby ckirsch » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:57 am

I guess you're right. Even a three-legged pug rescued from the pound a week before the test has at least a fifty/fifty shot at getting through clean. After all, it's only a test. As Einstein would apparently point out, any dog can pass.

Once again, just be sure to let us know when you and your dog breeze through, so that I can send my regards.
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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby ForestDump » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:46 am

ckirsch wrote:I guess you're right. Even a three-legged pug rescued from the pound a week before the test has at least a fifty/fifty shot at getting through clean. After all, it's only a test. As Einstein would apparently point out, any dog can pass.

Once again, just be sure to let us know when you and your dog breeze through, so that I can send my regards.


You are being deliberately obtuse and I don’t know how I can make myself any clearer. Sorry I offended you and I hope you find what you’re looking for in life.
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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby orhunter » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:16 pm

Good post G Man.

“I have seen VC’s I would not want to own or hunt with.” You could have added, or use for breeding material.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby ckirsch » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:30 pm

ForestDump wrote:
ckirsch wrote:I guess you're right. Even a three-legged pug rescued from the pound a week before the test has at least a fifty/fifty shot at getting through clean. After all, it's only a test. As Einstein would apparently point out, any dog can pass.

Once again, just be sure to let us know when you and your dog breeze through, so that I can send my regards.


You are being deliberately obtuse and I don’t know how I can make myself any clearer. Sorry I offended you and I hope you find what you’re looking for in life.


Thanks, but I'm actually quite satisfied with my lot in life. Not surprisingly, I find you to be the obtuse party. My advice would be to stay the hell out of NAVHDA. You're obviously far too sophisticated for that group of heathens. I hope you eventually find the perfect testing / trialing organization you're searching for, and are able to find treatment for your Stage 4 superiority complex.
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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby DonT » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:59 pm

I hope they don't water down the Invitationals, this is NAVHDA's Nationals. The top 100 dogs of that year qualify for a chance to add a Champion to their name. With a 30% pass rate and with my breed (Griffon's) 1 out of 6/7 on average pass, it can't be all that easy. No fields/water is perfect they all have compromises, different locations will just screw thing up. And what East and West, so whats the break down 70/30 - 8/20. So you go to the VC West with 20 dogs running and at the end of the day your sitting on the tailgate of your truck reading score's, no thank you.

I am bless to belong to a great chapter with great people and dogs. So my Griffon is taking us to Iowa next year with a UT Prize 1 204. Pass or fail it's a honor to get to go.
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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:27 pm

FD,

Earlier in the year in another post, I argued in favor of having at least 2 Inv test sites a year. No reason it cannot be done and the current number of entries has become so burdensome and unwieldy it is past due. The distance required for many to travel is ridiculous.

Way too much is made of this test. AKC runs bracemate tests as a matter of routine. Add some water work which every retriever test routinely does and you have an Inv. The reason its current logistics are so difficult is because the insistence on only holding one a year makes the number of entries at a single test location unwieldy. More than one Inv test site a year would easily solve that.

Please note, I am not saying the accomplishment to pass the Inv is routine, I am saying Clubs putting on tests with these types of test components is routine. It is very doable to hold more than one Inv.

Tradition seems to the barrier that will have to fall before it changes.
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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby jlw034 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:43 pm

FD: it's tough man. I get your overall point. I drove 14 hours to test the invy...it sucked. I can't imagine living way out west. That being said, I'm not sure having each chapter do an invy is the answer. Having worked lots of local tests, I now see how the invy is a different beast. 2-3 tests per year would make sense, scattered around the country.

And despite the hate, you are correct. Technically every dog at the invy could pass. That will never happen though. The title champion is just that, a title. The testing organization gets to call the winners whatever they want.

AG is correct, this test gets too much pomp. It's basically a high level obedience test. But, it's testing the best NAVHDA has to offer and holding them to a very high bar. The stress of having one shot on one day to get it right separates the good from the best. Just like all the other tests, there's VC dogs you couldn't pay me to own, and wash outs that I'd take in a second.

And ckirsch: chill out dude.
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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby ckirsch » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:54 am

jlw;

So sorry, man. Shoulda never got so gnarly. I'm chillin' now. Maybe see ya at the invy.

Rock on, dude!
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Re: Should the VC be a separate event?

Postby JONOV » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:43 pm

ForestDump wrote:Again, there’s no disdain for NAVHDA. Some things don’t make much sense and I wonder why some things aren’t thought of to be changed but it’s a cool testing system. It requires a lot of a dog.

I say “versatile champion” is an odd title because the champion prefix is reserved for a competition.


Are they though? Reserved by who? Not the AKC. I can think of a handful of prefix Champion titles that require an amalgamation of tests. I think that both NAHRA and HRC both use some variety of Championship prefixes for upper echelon achievements and I believe they're all evaluated against a standard. And HRC only has two "Grand" venues a year if my memory serves me correctly.

And although other organizations require competition, it isn't as if the opportunity is extremely exclusive...Look at American Field's calendar: https://americanfield.villagesoup.com/calendar/
There are 15 Championships in the next few weeks. 15. Some all age, some shooting dog, but 15 opportunities for the CH. Looking at January, 15 more. Seeing an FDSB pointer or setter with the prefix CH could mean that they won something with large competitive fields competing against the stiffest competition handled by Gary Lester or Sean Derrig or Luke Eisenhart, or something like a Mid Atlantic Amateur Walking Shooting dog stake where your local retired dentist runs his two setters against a couple dogs brought by a Landscaper/breeder/part-time preserve hunting guide.

That's why I personally don't see the CH prefix being silly or unwarranted. You get one bite at the apple, and that's it.
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