How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

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How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby hicntry » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:56 pm

A person posts that he/she is looking for a working dog and wants some recommendations. Everyone parrots the same standard stuff about DO YOUR HOMEWORK< CHECK OUT BREEDERS RATHER THAN THE DOG BECAUSE YOU WANT A REPUTABLE BREEDER I am sure everyone gets the gist as you hear it on a daily basis. OK, what would be your reaction if many of the breeders you visited had crates lined up to with all their dogs in them. Myself, I would have had 25 to 30 crates full of dogs. Y'all would be horrified and set out on a quest to have any breeders that raised dogs that way shut down and jailed if possible

The reality is you will never see that kind of thing happen. Why, and there is a reason for it......they want to get the most out of their pups. Here is what I can't wrap my head around. After researching breeders and kennels for a good dog, how do you justify taking one of those puppies home and subject it to living much of it's life in a crate rather than teaching it some manners when you never see a breeder display his dogs that way??? If crating produced good working dogs I am sure a few breeders would do it.
Last edited by hicntry on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby flitecontrol » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:41 pm

I usually don't respond to posts like this, but what the heck, I've fed trolls before.

Where did you get the impression (stated as a fact) that many pups live much of their lives in a crate? I haven't seen anything on this forum that would lead me to believe this statement is true. I gather from reading some of your posts that you live in the country where you can allow your dogs to run free, and you don't do any formal training (and only a modicum of that) until the dogs are pretty much mature. Is this correct? If so, it appears that you assume every dog owner lives under similar circumstances, which isn't accurate. Many live in the suburbs, some in the city, and most work outside the home. If they were to let their dogs run loose outside, they would probably be in violation of local regulations, and the dogs would be subject to being struck by vehicles, making the owner liable for any damage. Letting the dog have the run of the house when no humans are around is an invitation for significant damage to the home, no matter how good their training. So, for many, when no one is home, the dog is either crated or in an outside kennel. When folks come home, the dog is let out and interacts with the owner/family. There really aren't any other viable options for these dog owners. In order to maintain order in the home, the dog needs to learn his place in the family "pack", which is dead last. Dogs that aren't taught this can have dominance issues. There have been a lot of very good gun dogs that were crated when the house was empty.

IMO, your argument doesn't hold water because it's based on a false premise.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby orhunter » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:02 pm

What does this have to do with Hank and Ellie? Please enlighten the less informed.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby JONOV » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:54 pm

A few thoughts, HC.

I might have a different perspective given that I’ve fostered a bunch of dogs in the last year, including some GSP’s with separation anxiety or CRATE RAGE. They are different conditions, fyi. It’s one thing to confine a dog to its crate for extended periods, constantly, and quite another to have a dog that’s comfortable in a crate.

My dog was a turd about crate training. Now, he settles right in. But, the point is that you want to be sure your dog is going to be ok with himself in a crate.

If you travel for hunting trips, the dog needs to be able to chill in a crate. If you take your dog to train, he needs to be able to chill in a crate. If you and your buddy plan to run one dog before lunch and a second after lunch....has to chill in the crate.

Some dogs do horribly in their crates. My last GSP foster took 10 zip ties to keep him in the crate. Thing about that. If I put 8, it was enough for him to bust out, even if his teeth were busted in the process. That’s a problem. That dog hit the lottery and does better out of the crate, but still.

It’s one of those things like gunshyness. Easy enough to prevent, a nightmare if you don’t do your ounce of prevention.

My dog is rarely crated, mostly in the car or training day...but he needed that training early.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby hicntry » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:07 am

flitecontrol wrote:I usually don't respond to posts like this, but what the heck, I've fed trolls before.

Where did you get the impression (stated as a fact) that many pups live much of their lives in a crate? I haven't seen anything on this forum that would lead me to believe this statement is true. I gather from reading some of your posts that you live in the country where you can allow your dogs to run free, and you don't do any formal training (and only a modicum of that) until the dogs are pretty much mature. Is this correct? If so, it appears that you assume every dog owner lives under similar circumstances, which isn't accurate. Many live in the suburbs, some in the city, and most work outside the home. If they were to let their dogs run loose outside, they would probably be in violation of local regulations, and the dogs would be subject to being struck by vehicles, making the owner liable for any damage. Letting the dog have the run of the house when no humans are around is an invitation for significant damage to the home, no matter how good their training. So, for many, when no one is home, the dog is either crated or in an outside kennel. When folks come home, the dog is let out and interacts with the owner/family. There really aren't any other viable options for these dog owners. In order to maintain order in the home, the dog needs to learn his place in the family "pack", which is dead last. Dogs that aren't taught this can have dominance issues. There have been a lot of very good gun dogs that were crated when the house was empty.

IMO, your argument doesn't hold water because it's based on a false premise.


My premis doesn't hold water!!!! LOL Look at the crazy stuff you just put up FC. Half the dog owners out there leave their dogs home uncrated and without supervision. You can't seriously pretend you don'/t know that. I have two dogs that stay alone whenever I go. Never in my life have I had dogs that I wouldn't leave alone .....many times 2 and 3 at a time. Also, I Iived in the mountains and my dogs were always contained in side an electrified 2 acre area. It would be totally nuts to leave 25 to 30 dogs free roaming. I don't do what I consider formal training for the first six months. I spend it getting them used to living with me if I am going to keep the animal. I can't say that I know anyone that crates their dog when leaving the house. Most everyone has options......like putting the dog outside in a fenced yard......maybe a walk in kennel.....or like myself I always installed a dog door so the dogs had access to both the inside and outside. It really isn't that hard to improve on a crate.

I noticed that you totally ignored the part about breeders being held to a much higher standard than you have.
Last edited by hicntry on Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby hicntry » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:18 am

JONOV wrote:A few thoughts, HC.

I might have a different perspective given that I’ve fostered a bunch of dogs in the last year, including some GSP’s with separation anxiety or CRATE RAGE. They are different conditions, fyi. It’s one thing to confine a dog to its crate for extended periods, constantly, and quite another to have a dog that’s comfortable in a crate.

My dog was a turd about crate training. Now, he settles right in. But, the point is that you want to be sure your dog is going to be ok with himself in a crate.

If you travel for hunting trips, the dog needs to be able to chill in a crate. If you take your dog to train, he needs to be able to chill in a crate. If you and your buddy plan to run one dog before lunch and a second after lunch....has to chill in the crate.

Some dogs do horribly in their crates. My last GSP foster took 10 zip ties to keep him in the crate. Thing about that. If I put 8, it was enough for him to bust out, even if his teeth were busted in the process. That’s a problem. That dog hit the lottery and does better out of the crate, but still.

It’s one of those things like gunshyness. Easy enough to prevent, a nightmare if you don’t do your ounce of prevention.

My dog is rarely crated, mostly in the car or training day...but he needed that training early.


Jonov, I commend what you do with rescues. It is indeed a different set of problems and I wouldn't do it myself. I have to make one comment when it comes to "crate training"! It is totally fabricated terminology. There is no such thing as crate training. It simply consists of putting a puppy in a crate often enough that it ultimately surrenders.. There is nothing about it that can be considered a training process. The terminology just makes those doing feel better about it.
Here are two of my dogs crated even tho they were never traine for it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/ ... ndDonr.jpg
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby JONOV » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:22 pm

hicntry wrote:
JONOV wrote:A few thoughts, HC.

I might have a different perspective given that I’ve fostered a bunch of dogs in the last year, including some GSP’s with separation anxiety or CRATE RAGE. They are different conditions, fyi. It’s one thing to confine a dog to its crate for extended periods, constantly, and quite another to have a dog that’s comfortable in a crate.

My dog was a turd about crate training. Now, he settles right in. But, the point is that you want to be sure your dog is going to be ok with himself in a crate.

If you travel for hunting trips, the dog needs to be able to chill in a crate. If you take your dog to train, he needs to be able to chill in a crate. If you and your buddy plan to run one dog before lunch and a second after lunch....has to chill in the crate.

Some dogs do horribly in their crates. My last GSP foster took 10 zip ties to keep him in the crate. Thing about that. If I put 8, it was enough for him to bust out, even if his teeth were busted in the process. That’s a problem. That dog hit the lottery and does better out of the crate, but still.

It’s one of those things like gunshyness. Easy enough to prevent, a nightmare if you don’t do your ounce of prevention.

My dog is rarely crated, mostly in the car or training day...but he needed that training early.


Jonov, I commend what you do with rescues. It is indeed a different set of problems and I wouldn't do it myself. I have to make one comment when it comes to "crate training"! It is totally fabricated terminology. There is no such thing as crate training. It simply consists of putting a puppy in a crate often enough that it ultimately surrenders.. There is nothing about it that can be considered a training process. The terminology just makes those doing feel better about it.
Here are two of my dogs crated even tho they were never traine for it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/ ... ndDonr.jpg
Thanks. I'm pretty garbage when it comes to training a dog, but I am pretty good at socializing them and turning them into decent pets.

Regarding your picture, That's because you have well balanced, socialized dogs. I never had to introduce my dog to cattle or horses. I took him all over Kingdom Come when he was a pup so that there was very little that would scare or unnerve him. So, when i took him to a horseback field trial (judges and gallery on Horseback) He sniffed the horse from a prudent distance, and went about his business. Ditto cattle the first time I took him hunting in a pasture.

I may be assuming too much here, but if your dogs associate you, truck rides, and the crate with all things hunting, then of course they'll kennel up. Its like an e-collar. If your dog associates the e-collar with pain, then you'll have problems. If he associated the e-collar with going outside for a run/walk/hunt, you won't have those problems.

Crate training isn't training. Its socialization. And, for 90% of folks that live with dogs in the house, crate training is important til you get to the point that you trust the dog won't woodchip the dining room table when your dog. I crated mine the first year I owned him when he wasn't home. I've lost too many drapes and had a dog s*** on my living room couch that rescues are always crated when I'm gone if at all practical.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby Dmog » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:08 pm

orhunter wrote:What does this have to do with Hank and Ellie? Please enlighten the less informed.

I guess nobody is going to clue us in...never mind, I’ll read the saga sometime.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby hicntry » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:18 pm

Hank had acquired his first working dog ....which was crated every day when he went to work. This same discussion took place then. In view of some recent posts it was time to have it again.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby JTracyII » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:22 pm

How about good ole Hank and Ellie...
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby hicntry » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:21 pm

Sorry FC. When I listed the other options in my previous post, I missed the big one. If you don't have any viable option outside of crating an energetic puppy all day, every day while you go to work, DON"T GET A DOG. Get a pet hamster, or a pet rat or an old junker you can park until you are in the mood to work on it.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby Deacon » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:47 am

I recall Hank and Ellie quite well. Hank got Ellie a few months after I had gotten my first PP. While I had grown up with bird dogs, Ellie was Hank's first dog. His parents live near me and I met up with him a few times to help him train and even did a few hunts with him. He was far more the type of dog owner who would send their dog to doggie day care, than the type to neglect the dog. That dog was basically his child and it didn't want for anything. We were scheduled to hunt grouse and woodcock the morning after Ellie punctured her chest attempting to retrieve a bumper thrown into the woods. He called me enroute to the vet, completely emotionally torn up, knowing she was just about gone. That was a tough call. I can still remember exactly where I was when I got it. The last time I talked to Hank he was resigned to the fact that Connecticut was not conducive to keeping bird dogs and had gotten himself a rottie mix as a companion.

It is ridiculous to assume that a dog which is crated throughout the day is somehow neglected. I know of multiple FC/AFC's who are crated a majority of the time. My two youngest PP's were crated all day yesterday, until after work, when they got to run 15 miles through a jungle woodcock hunting. Today, they are back in the crate, licking wounds and waiting for me to get home to do it all again.

It is October. Isn't there something better to do with our time than to discuss the merits of crating dogs?
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby hicntry » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:54 am

Like....what kind of dog food are you feeding today?
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby hicntry » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:19 am

OK...UNCLE!!! Your dogs are your dogs and you can do what you want with them. Kudo's to pet dog owners that still have the superior skills required to raise a dog that they can leave unsupervised in a house. My hat is off to them. I am going to forget about this thread even though the real question has been ignored totally. Why wouldn't any of you buy a pup from a breeder that kept his puppies crated all day if it is so acceptable. I will leave you with that thought.
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Re: How many of you remember Hank and Ellie.

Postby Spindog » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:04 pm

What is the difference if my dog is sleeping on the couch or sleeping in his crate when I am at work? I feel he is safer in his crate. When my dogs get old and retire I allow this but they usually end up sleeping in their crate with the door open.
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