Should sound familiar.

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Should sound familiar.

Postby hicntry » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:08 pm

Probably why my dogs lived years longer after I realized they lived 3 to 4 1/2 years longer without vet care.

https://neonnettle.com/news/4897-study- ... ccinating-
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby carramrod » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:30 pm

Yeah that lost me about 2 paragraphs in when it turned to the whole anti vaccination rhetoric that's been proven to not be the case.
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby hicntry » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:13 pm

The info is there, folks can do with it what they want.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby carramrod » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:37 pm

The world is full of unproven or false info.
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby hicntry » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:06 am

carramrod wrote:Yeah that lost me about 2 paragraphs in when it turned to the whole anti vaccination rhetoric that's been proven to not be the case.


That isn't true. There has just never been enough studies to prove it unequivocally. After, what? Two decades of studies this is what they are finding. Much like 20 plus years ago I said that they would never say what the real cause of HD was because to many were willing to pay for it. It was a cash cow that started out as a genetic problem. That morphed into a combination genetic/nutrition problem. Next it morphed in to a problem involving multiple genes and was going to take a lot longer to unravel. And recently, the truth is coming out and environmental conditions that pups are raise in is taking a front row seat.

I don't kwow what is so hard for some to consider things like this when 27.000 deaths are attributed to booze per year. 57,000 to drugs and 255,000 to doctors. That is 5 times the death rate put on Doctors over drugs.
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby carramrod » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:02 pm

I guess the life expectancy has increased not due in part to better healthcare or advances in science but due to less people going to the doctor.
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby Doc E » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:17 pm

Medical "mistakes" are the 3rd leading cause of death un the USA.
I wonder what it is in Vet Medicine ?

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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:28 am

Doc E wrote:Medical "mistakes" are the 3rd leading cause of death un the USA.
I wonder what it is in Vet Medicine ?

.


Much lower, because people choose to euthanize their terminally ill pet instead of hoping the doctor can buy them a few more weeks and blaming the death on the doctor when they can’t.
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby orhunter » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:04 am

“There just hasn’t been enough studies to prove it.” This reminds me of the Rabies vaccine. Tests were concluded after three years so that became the rule to vaccinate every three years. In truth, the vaccine is good for much longer than three years after the second innoculation. Titer tests will indicate when vaccines are needed, not the calendar.

Agree with MissK on euthanizing sick pets. Some well known Vet chains are good at extracting every last dollar from the client in order to keep a pet alive by making the client feel guilty for not trying everything available.
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby hicntry » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:04 am

Maybe the better question would be ," How many animals live shorter lives because of the excessive preventative medicine practiced by vets". Excessive vaccinations probably being the leading one..
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby flitecontrol » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:30 pm

The period for rabies vaccination varies from state to state. Some are every three years, others are annually. Which begs the question, what scientific evidence is there for the need to vaccinate every year, every three years, or even longer?
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:47 am

flitecontrol wrote:The period for rabies vaccination varies from state to state. Some are every three years, others are annually. Which begs the question, what scientific evidence is there for the need to vaccinate every year, every three years, or even longer?


Humans are terrible about maintaining vaccines. We have a 3 year option, but you must vaccinate on time in Iowa. Probably 80% of clients can’t prioritize it enough to be on time.

Rabies vaccination of pets exists PURELY as a barrier between wildlife and human transmission. Rabies is 99.99% deadly, and still kills tens of thousands of people annually in countries where pets are not commonly vaccinated.

So if 10,000 fewer deaths annually isn’t good enough evidence, what evidence do you need?
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby flitecontrol » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:44 pm

I'm not saying don't vaccinate, I'm asking why different states have various time period requirements for rabies vaccinations. Do states with a three year vaccination requirement have more cases of rabid dogs than those with an annual vaccination? If not, why? Is it because an annual vaccination doesn't provide any more protection than every three years? Don't antibody levels indicate the degree of protection? If the levels of protection from infection are the same for both periods, why are states requiring annual vaccinations?

Here's a medical site that indicates that one and three year periods are acceptable. https://pets.webmd.com/pet-vaccines-sch ... ats-dogs#1

From the American Veterinary Medical Association FAQ page:

"Q: How often should pets be revaccinated?

A: Veterinarians have traditionally vaccinated annually; however, they are now learning that some vaccines induce immunity that lasts less than one year, whereas others may induce immunity that lasts well beyond one year. The AVMA recommends that veterinarians customize vaccination programs to the needs of their patients. More than one vaccination program may be effective."

And from Dogs Naturally magazine:

"You might have noticed that rabies vaccines are labeled for either one year or three years. What is the difference between the two vaccines? The answer is that there is no difference. It is the exact same vaccine.

Veterinary immunologist Dr. Ronald Schultz states: “There is no benefit from annual rabies vaccination and most one year rabies products are similar or identical to the 3-year products with regard to duration of immunity and effectiveness. However, if they are 1 year rabies vaccines, they must be legally given annually! Rabies vaccine is the only canine vaccine requiring a minimum duration of immunity study. However, revaccination annually does not necessarily improve immunity. However, annual vaccination does significantly increase the risk for an adverse reaction in the dog.”"

So why do many states require annual rabies vaccinations when the scientific data indicates it isn't necessary?
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:51 pm

Dogs naturally is about as horrible as it gets. Throw that shitt away.

https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/1 ... .248.5.505
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Re: Should sound familiar.

Postby flitecontrol » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:17 pm

Are you saying that Dr. Schultz is full of it? He's a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine, is a highly regarded immunologist, and teaches at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine. I assume he's also a member of the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA). Dr. Schultz is on the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) Canine Vaccine Task Force and the American Association of Feline Practitioners (AAFP) Feline Vaccine Task Force; these two organizations provide guidelines to the veterinary industry for canine and feline vaccination programs. Dr. Schultz was also asked to help develop the canine and feline vaccination guidelines for the World Small Animal Veterinary Medical Association. Dr. Schultz studied the duration of immunity (DOI) of common canine vaccinations through serological antibody titers and challenge studies dating back to the 1970s. Dr. Schultz co-published a paper in 1978 in which triennial vaccination was recommended over then standard annual vaccination. It took 25 years, but in 2003, the American Animal Hospital Association and the AVMA, conceded that his thesis that canine “core” vaccines need not be given more often than every three years was valid. Dr. Schultz was also one of the few vaccine experts to point out that the yearly recommendation included on vaccine labels was not based on any scientific studies nor ever scientifically validated!

Now let's look at the AVMA journal you linked to.

"Multiple vaccines are licensed for use in domestic animal species. Vaccines available include inactivated and modified-live virus vectored products, products for IM and SC administration, products with durations of immunity for periods of 1 to 3 years, and products with various minimum ages of vaccination." and "Vaccines used in state and local rabies control programs should have at least a 3-year duration of immunity."

So the AVMA recognizes that rabies (and probably other "core" vaccines) will provide at least three years of protection, which gets back to my question as to why some states require an annual rabies vaccination, and others only every three years, and are there any studies that have investigated the period of protection the vaccine(s) actually provide? It turns out there are, and they were conducted by none other than Dr. Schultz.

So, thanks to your link and further digging on my part, my question about why the varying periods for vaccination has been answered. I believe it's best summarized by a picture a co-worker kept on his desk. The picture was of a grinning chimpanzee in a business suit pulling a sheet of paper out of a briefcase. At the top of the sheet was the word POLICY. Underneath was the caption: "There's no reason for it, it's just our policy."
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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