GWP or DD??

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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby goosedowner » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:55 pm

AverageGuy wrote:So someone inquires about GWPs and the DD breeder takes the thread into a discussion of the worst GWP she has ever seen. Real helpful.

What a ridiculous red herring - a discussion of lemon GWPs. I have never seen one in person in over 30 years with the Breed and would venture to estimate that less than 1% of the GWPs pups born will be lemon. Avoiding them is beyond easy.

Goosedowner,

You posted you wanted a dog which would point upland birds and handle cold water waterfowl duties. All of my GWPs have done that in spades. My current dog came from Bone Point Kennels which is part of the GW Breeders Alliance link I posted earier. He retrieved 30 doves on his first hunt at 7 months, has hunted Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Huns, Bobwhites, Pheasants, Waterfowl and Whitetail recoveries in 8 states and Canada in his first two seasons. Earned a Prize 1 UT at 18 months. His Sire is the same as that not yet 4 month old Prize 1 112 NA pup and his Dam is a littermate sister to that pup's Dam.

Cold Water Waterfowl Duties:

My GWP recovering a diving greenhead in swift ice filled river current.

Image

The total Bag my Dog retrieved from the River that day.

Image

This need some DD Breeders have to run down the GWPs gets tiresome. Having heard it for over 30 years now I should be used to it ...


Very nice.!!!!!!!
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:14 pm

AverageGuy wrote:So someone inquires about GWPs and the DD breeder takes the thread into a discussion of the worst GWP she has ever seen. Real helpful.

What a ridiculous red herring - a discussion of lemon GWPs. I have never seen one in person in over 30 years with the Breed and would venture to estimate that less than 1% of the GWPs pups born will be lemon. Avoiding them is beyond easy.

Goosedowner,

You posted you wanted a dog which would point upland birds and handle cold water waterfowl duties. All of my GWPs have done that in spades. My current dog came from Bone Point Kennels which is part of the GW Breeders Alliance link I posted earier. He retrieved 30 doves on his first hunt at 7 months, has hunted Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Huns, Bobwhites, Pheasants, Waterfowl and Whitetail recoveries in 8 states and Canada in his first two seasons. Earned a Prize 1 UT at 18 months. His Sire is the same as that not yet 4 month old Prize 1 112 NA pup and his Dam is a littermate sister to that pup's Dam.

Cold Water Waterfowl Duties:

My GWP recovering a diving greenhead in swift ice filled river current.

Image

The total Bag my Dog retrieved from the River that day.

Image

This need some DD Breeders have to run down the GWPs gets tiresome. Having heard it for over 30 years now I should be used to it ...


No offense, but the kennel that produced your puppy comes from DD's. Mostly Three Devil dogs one generation removed.

Kind of dilutes your point. It's not like these pups are from twenty generations of GWP's...
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:35 pm

No actually you miss the Obvious, AlaskaMagnum.

Which is, it negates your contention the GWPs and DDs are dramatically different breeds, at least in this case. I already posted that I see a lot of nice DDs around, and seek out the GWPs with some portion of DD genetics. DD folks insist Jeff's dogs not be referred to as DDs given they are NAVHDA registered. Jeff does not refer to them as DDs.

So which is it going to be? First You post they are not the same breed and now you post my GWP is a DD.

I get the puppies I am after, over and over. It is easy to find excellent GWPs. When I can help someone else looking for a puppy I do. When I read inaccurate static I respond least the less informed be mislead by it.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:54 pm

The same point everyone makes about silver Labradors. It’s a recessive Gene, meaning both parents have a woodshed pedigree somewhere along the line.[/quote]


That whole silver lab deal started with a Mn. Kennel that bred Weim's. There is Weim. In all silver lab DNA.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:20 am

AverageGuy wrote:No actually you miss the Obvious, AlaskaMagnum.

Which is, it negates your contention the GWPs and DDs are dramatically different breeds, at least in this case. I already posted that I see a lot of nice DDs around, and seek out the GWPs with some portion of DD genetics. DD folks insist Jeff's dogs not be referred to as DDs given they are NAVHDA registered. Jeff does not refer to them as DDs.

So which is it going to be? First You post they are not the same breed and now you post my GWP is a DD.

I get the puppies I am after, over and over. It is easy to find excellent GWPs. When I can help someone else looking for a puppy I do. When I read inaccurate static I respond least the less informed be mislead by it.


They aren't. I already stated that MANY of the dogs are genetically the same more or less, but the GWP pool has genes from the FT lines in the pool the DDs don't.

You are looking at individual dogs. I am talking about the whole enchilada.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:24 am

AlaskaMagnum, we have different perspectives. The specific cross that produced my pup and the other pup mentioned is a cross of German lines with an extremely successful FT line from Canada. I find that very interesting and it has produced some nice dogs. I like a system where responsible Breeders are free to experiment in an effort to home in on what matters most to them in their dogs. A consumer who does their research (as they always should no matter what the breed) can benefit from such an approach. I did.

I doubt there is anyone amongst us that has not see a horrible Labrador, or likely several. And yet whenever someone posts inquiring about a Labrador we productively focus our comments on the numerous sources of excellent Labradors vs painting the entire breed as the horrible segments within the hugely popular breed. I have seen dogs I would not own and others I admired in just about every Sporting Breed I have been exposed to, including DDs.

When GWPs are the topic of discussion some of us discuss the good ones we have extensive first hand experience with. Others post propaganda from their Breed Club about dogs they have no experience with. I do what I can and enjoy my dogs.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby orhunter » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:44 am

Good breeders have a pretty good circle of like minded breeders who rely on each other, they aren’t going it alone. If any breeder thinks they’ve got it nailed doing it on their own, they probably don’t. Exceptions would be rare. Bone Point dogs are bred with a purpose, a plan. Nothing is random about the pairings. The top Griff breeders take the same approach. They communicate.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby stubblejumper » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:28 am

When I decided to get my first hunting dog, I was looking for a GWP, and was not even aware that there was a DD. After doing research, I settled on a DD, not because of any supposed difference, but rather because I was so impressed with the breeder, and his dogs. Now that I have had a DD for two years, I am totally pleased with him.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby flitecontrol » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:39 am

That whole silver lab deal started with a Mn. Kennel that bred Weim's. There is Weim. In all silver lab DNA.[/quote]

Reminds me of the "Griffon" that looked just like a Shorthair (flat, short coat) with a hint of a beard. That breeder also raised Shorthairs, but swore the sire and dam were Griffons. Some breeders lack integrity.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby JONOV » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:00 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:But I didn't say that all GWP'S were backyard bred. I said the GWP COULD be, where the DD HAD to be tested. No doubt there are a lot of good GWP'S out there. You just have to buy from a reputable breeder and when you do, that dog MAY fit the bill of the typical American Hunter better than the DD.


Haven’t seen any Lemon or orange DDs, but there’s been quite a few on the AKC side this summer.

If you’ve got lemon colored GWP, might as well be a silver lab, am I right?

Maybe. I'm not saying that no one ever threw in a pointer, but you're implication that there are lemon colored GWPs all over the place is ridiculous. And, while the VDD specifically prohibits breeding dogs that are lemon, yellow, yellow roan, dogs with tan points, dead leaf color, dogs with light colored noses, or dogs with a lot of white "Unless they're from Scandanavia," the mention of those colors (as opposed to silver or red or merle) implies that such dogs have arisen in their history.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby JONOV » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:14 pm

AlaskaMagnum wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:No actually you miss the Obvious, AlaskaMagnum.

Which is, it negates your contention the GWPs and DDs are dramatically different breeds, at least in this case. I already posted that I see a lot of nice DDs around, and seek out the GWPs with some portion of DD genetics. DD folks insist Jeff's dogs not be referred to as DDs given they are NAVHDA registered. Jeff does not refer to them as DDs.

So which is it going to be? First You post they are not the same breed and now you post my GWP is a DD.

I get the puppies I am after, over and over. It is easy to find excellent GWPs. When I can help someone else looking for a puppy I do. When I read inaccurate static I respond least the less informed be mislead by it.


They aren't. I already stated that MANY of the dogs are genetically the same more or less, but the GWP pool has genes from the FT lines in the pool the DDs don't.

You are looking at individual dogs. I am talking about the whole enchilada.

There really aren't that many FT GWP's. I've never really heard of it being a thing. Maybe out west or in Canada? I'm not sure. Not saying there are none, but if I open an American Field issue I rarely see "German Drahthaar" anywhere in the lineups.

A lot do run in NSTRA but so do DD's and in any case, NSTRA as a game has never required anything that GWP's and DD's don't come by honestly.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby ForestDump » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:45 pm

JONOV wrote:
AlaskaMagnum wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:No actually you miss the Obvious, AlaskaMagnum.

Which is, it negates your contention the GWPs and DDs are dramatically different breeds, at least in this case. I already posted that I see a lot of nice DDs around, and seek out the GWPs with some portion of DD genetics. DD folks insist Jeff's dogs not be referred to as DDs given they are NAVHDA registered. Jeff does not refer to them as DDs.

So which is it going to be? First You post they are not the same breed and now you post my GWP is a DD.

I get the puppies I am after, over and over. It is easy to find excellent GWPs. When I can help someone else looking for a puppy I do. When I read inaccurate static I respond least the less informed be mislead by it.


They aren't. I already stated that MANY of the dogs are genetically the same more or less, but the GWP pool has genes from the FT lines in the pool the DDs don't.

You are looking at individual dogs. I am talking about the whole enchilada.

There really aren't that many FT GWP's. I've never really heard of it being a thing. Maybe out west or in Canada? I'm not sure. Not saying there are none, but if I open an American Field issue I rarely see "German Drahthaar" anywhere in the lineups.

A lot do run in NSTRA but so do DD's and in any case, NSTRA as a game has never required anything that GWP's and DD's don't come by honestly.


This is true, AKC GWP club is relatively very small and the ones who compete in FT are even smaller. Last year less than 50 GWPs placed in trials and this year the field for GWP Nationals is only 21 dogs.

I would imagine the NAVHDA numbers dwarf that considerably.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby gusto » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:49 pm

Same breed sorry. I’ve owned them both for years what a buyer needs to concentrate on is the breeder as usual.
Those Alberta GWPs back in the day were the best I’ve been around.
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby Urban_Redneck » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:56 am

I've seen quite a few DD and GWP dogs in action, a DD pedigree guarantees nothing. Schwartzwald breeds some really nice GWP.

For an eccentric like goosedowner I'd look at a pudelpointer from Iwan, or to continue the theme, a Ponto from France :wink:
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Re: GWP or DD??

Postby LongHammer » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:09 pm

2 DDs hop thier fences and have a litter. Pups are all GWPs. :lol:
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