Handling and/or hand signals questions

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Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:14 am

So I've been working with my dog on hand signals and have a question (probably more to follow).

When you send your dog for an "over" command and she doesn't go quite far enough, do you follow that up with another whistle and over? Or based on the position of the dog, do you give a "back" since she'd need to turn around and go straight away from you to get the bumper?

I have been doing back, but it seems like everything not far enough turns into back. I feel like if I did over my dog would/should end up in a big square around me. Then again, the original command was over and she didn't go far enough...so repeating the same command seems valid.


I'm also interested in hearing how guys have transitioned to water. I've done hand signals from land into water, with her feet wet, along shore, but setting up drills I'm looking for more info on. I'm planning to have a guy in a kayak about 40 yards out, send her to the kayak, have the guy in the kayak throw the bumper to the side, whistle-over. I've been using white buckets, haven't used them at all in water yet.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:43 pm

Booger,

When training overs, i want to make my signals 90 degrees to teach the dog to carry that command. But here is where it gets a bit complicated. Its very rare for my dog to get into a position where i have to send it in on a really long "over". Im not going to let the dog get way off line to the point I need a long over, say 50 yards or more.
If I do so be it, give the command again. But once we are past initial training Im join going to give an "angle " back to get the dog on line or to the bird.. So instead of my hand being straight up or straight to the side, the arm will go up at a 45 degree angle. I think Evan graham shows this with his walking baseball drill. Its not really anything I have even set up drills for myself, the dog tends to just "pick" them up. give a 45 degree signal with your arm and a "back" voice command. But this is only after very good comprehension over overs and backs.

Transitioning to water. Look for small water . You should be able to throw a bumpier across as a guide. Look for drills on" swim by".
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Doc E » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:54 am

Speaking of Evan Graham, he also has an excellent "T" and "TT" (double T)
program which you definitely need to do as well as "Swim By".

.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:57 am

I've been looking into T drills, need to do those on land first at the baseball field.

I haven't worked much with poison bumpers either, other than simple wagon wheel stuff.

I might have to buy some more bumpers...
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:28 pm

I've been watching these Freddy King videos on youtube and can't help but wonder how many takes are going into these videos. It sounds like he works with his dog multiple times per day, and his dog is damn near flawless. They're helpful, but he makes it look insanely easy especially compared to the crap I've encountered with my dog.


And I guess I don't understand why I'd want to train swim by. I really don't care if my dog runs the bank to get back.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:44 pm

booger wrote:I've been watching these Freddy King videos on youtube and can't help but wonder how many takes are going into these videos. It sounds like he works with his dog multiple times per day, and his dog is damn near flawless. They're helpful, but he makes it look insanely easy especially compared to the crap I've encountered with my dog.


And I guess I don't understand why I'd want to train swim by. I really don't care if my dog runs the bank to get back.


If he runs the bank coming back, he'll run it going out.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:59 pm

Swim By,
More control, more comprehension.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:55 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
booger wrote:I've been watching these Freddy King videos on youtube and can't help but wonder how many takes are going into these videos. It sounds like he works with his dog multiple times per day, and his dog is damn near flawless. They're helpful, but he makes it look insanely easy especially compared to the crap I've encountered with my dog.


And I guess I don't understand why I'd want to train swim by. I really don't care if my dog runs the bank to get back.


If he runs the bank coming back, he'll run it going out.


I’ve not found that to be true. Both my dogs go straight to the bird on the way out, and run the bank around on the way back.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:52 am

Misskiwi,
Its not an absolute, but it is not uncommon. 2 dog sample size is too small.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:04 am

Kiger2 wrote:Misskiwi,
Its not an absolute, but it is not uncommon. 2 dog sample size is too small.


Expectations matter too. If they attempted to run the bank out I’d call them back and re-send. I don’t care how they geare back after the bird is in their mouth.

I think it’s the same old wives tail as not teaching a pointer to sit.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:Misskiwi,
Its not an absolute, but it is not uncommon. 2 dog sample size is too small.


Expectations matter too. If they attempted to run the bank out I’d call them back and re-send. I don’t care how they geare back after the bird is in their mouth.

I think it’s the same old wives tail as not teaching a pointer to sit.


I think GH n Kigers posts are accurate. It will vary by the dog as to whether bank running back leads to the same going out. And I teach sit early as well as whoa and get both well trained. But not a wives tale that some sitting shows up while training whoa ... I need sit for doves n waterfowl so I train through it and all works out fine.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:41 am

I decided to burn a pile of money on Smartworks, so that's on the way.

Took a few steps back last time out, apparently the place mat is significantly harder at a baseball field than in my back yard. And we've worked on place out in the field which she's done pretty well at prior to the last couple times.

Sometimes it is very hard to tell whether it is a refusal or not knowing. The problem I'm running into, is I'm not sure it matters because any correction will have a negative effect on her morale and thus negatively effect all future commands. So "place" turned into not going anywhere, laying down and me heeling her onto the place mat. A dedicated training session to just "place" seems to be in order. Obviously when combined with hand signals and bumpers, it was too much. But again, she's done it with bumpers in the field...how freaking frustrating.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:56 pm

Booger,
Describe how you are correcting?
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:50 pm

Typically starts off with "ought" or "no". Might move onto a pinch collar or e-collar if I feel like she "knows". Admittedly it is very hard to tell when she "knows". I'll also setup for PR and the clicker. But I really don't want her to start in the wrong direction (and give no correction) and figure out there isn't a bumper there anymore. Or there might actually be a bumper there and then she's rewarded for going to the wrong spot.

She's also tried to jump the gun a lot recently which to me means she's not thinking about the actual command. But stopping her or corrections here can lead to no going and loss of momentum.

For being an overly cooperative dog, she fights me on EVERYTHING.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:57 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:Misskiwi,
Its not an absolute, but it is not uncommon. 2 dog sample size is too small.


Expectations matter too. If they attempted to run the bank out I’d call them back and re-send. I don’t care how they geare back after the bird is in their mouth.

I think it’s the same old wives tail as not teaching a pointer to sit.


No old wives tail. If you call back and resend, you'll get no-goes and pops. Not old wives tail either.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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