Another food question...

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Re: Another food question...

Postby ejm4 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:40 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
Calvinator wrote:If it isn't broke why fix it!

As for large breed food, you don't want the pup to grow too fast. It's all about calories. I see more PP pups being fed PPP develop panosteitis than those fed other high quality kibbles. Generally I think it is because people feed too much food and like the look of an over weight puppy/dog.


Performance 30/20 is too calorically dense to be appropriate for large breed puppies.



To stay on track, she will be 1 year old, so I would assume she is no longer a puppy.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby JONOV » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:52 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Large breed is very important during the growth period. It’s marketing when dogs are adults.

Are you sure you didn't mean "portion control is very important during the growth period"?


Large breed PUPPY food is important during the growth period. It’s considered beneficial to any dog that will be over 50 pounds at maturity, and essential for any dog over 70 pounds. Very soon foods will be labeled as suitable/unsuitable for dogs over 70 pounds. Both my DDs are over 70 pounds so I don’t see what all the fuss is about.

Piggy backing on that, like other posters thought large breed was for Mastiffs, St Bernards, Great Danes. But that's neither here nor there, I'll defer to you since you went to Vet school.

At what point do you transition them to adult food? And is it different than the feeding protocol for "Giant" breeds? A friend had a Dane, and her breeder and vet kept the dog on a puppy food longer than I did, at least a year.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby Calvinator » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:03 pm

Misskiwi67,

I raise my puppies on Inukshuk 30/25 with no issues. It is 515kcal/cup. It is calorically dense. It allows me to feed less quantity. You could feed it to a Giant breed, but would have to scale back the amounts. That is why I said its all about calories. Most people want to feed too much food to their puppy or dog. Even if feeding a calorically dense product. That is probably why those that raise their pup on PPP tend to see panosteitis.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby flitecontrol » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:49 pm

I've heard that feeding a puppy an extremely high protein/calorie food can cause then to grow too rapidly, leading to joint issues later. Any truth to that?

I know some dogs will eat all the food available to them, but my GSP, WPG, and DD were given free access to food from the time I got them, and always maintained ideal weight.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby slistoe » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:40 pm

flitecontrol wrote:I've heard that feeding a puppy an extremely high protein/calorie food can cause then to grow too rapidly, leading to joint issues later. Any truth to that?

I know some dogs will eat all the food available to them, but my GSP, WPG, and DD were given free access to food from the time I got them, and always maintained ideal weight.

It all depends on how much you feed them.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby slistoe » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:56 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Performance 30/20 is too calorically dense to be appropriate for large breed puppies.

Do you have a link to a study that shows a significant difference in the dysplasia rate/ Osteoarthritis rate/ etc. between dogs fed appropriate calorie amounts of normal puppy food, performance adult food and "large breed" puppy foods?
The danger as I understand it would be in feeding a less calorie dense adult food - that would require the feeding of an excess number of cups of the food to the growing pup to meet its caloric requirements and other nutritional elements would be fed in excess. The main culprit here would be too much calcium in the diet causing a more rapid deposition/growth of bone.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby JONOV » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:14 am

flitecontrol wrote:I've heard that feeding a puppy an extremely high protein/calorie food can cause then to grow too rapidly, leading to joint issues later. Any truth to that?

I know some dogs will eat all the food available to them, but my GSP, WPG, and DD were given free access to food from the time I got them, and always maintained ideal weight.

I seem to remember that it was actually the calcium (i think) that they were able to isolate as the cause, that was present in higher amounts in puppy food. Everyone thought that it was the protein, since puppy foods have higher protein levels than most adult dog foods. Maybe someone else can find the study.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby orhunter » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:30 am

It's always been my understanding the problem was calories in puppy food. Growth is controlled by genetics and the only way to control it through nutrition would be to create a deficiency of some sort. Restricting nutrients to an unsafe level. The idea of less calories was to prevent the pup from becoming fat thus putting a strain on the skeletal system.

A good many of us start the transition to adult food as soon as we get a pup for this reason. I always have and if I get another dog, will continue to do so.

I don't think restricting food bulk of a highly nutritious food is a good idea. A certain amount of bulk is required for good digestion. Although my dog's calorie needs change throughout a year, I always fed the same amount by altering the food type.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:25 am

I remember when they first came out with puppy chows labeled for large breed dogs. Pano was the reason they did it, I used to believe that the best puppy foods were beneficial, so O fed Breeders Choice. Saw a lot of pups with Pano because of it and switched to a good basic adult food and never saw many more Pano. Pano is more prevalent in the long legged breeds and the growth spurts have to be kept min check Muscle and bone have to grow at the same rate. Teenagers suffer the same problems with rapid growth spurts.

As far as when a puppy becomes a dog\???? My dogs cut way back in food intake in the fourteenth month. To me, this indicated that the major growth was complete
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Re: Another food question...

Postby Calvinator » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:04 pm

OR,
I have always opted to feed a calorie dense food so the pup/dog has less bulk in their digestive system.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby hicntry » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:13 pm

I think puppy chows were, from their inception, a con job. They have cause more problems than they have ever solved. From what I have found, a good balanced
diet.does the job without the associated problems.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby orhunter » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:07 pm

Calvin: I'm not talking about loading up a dog's gut with bulk, just good food fed in the correct proportion.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:26 pm

slistoe wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Performance 30/20 is too calorically dense to be appropriate for large breed puppies.

Do you have a link to a study that shows a significant difference in the dysplasia rate/ Osteoarthritis rate/ etc. between dogs fed appropriate calorie amounts of normal puppy food, performance adult food and "large breed" puppy foods?
The danger as I understand it would be in feeding a less calorie dense adult food - that would require the feeding of an excess number of cups of the food to the growing pup to meet its caloric requirements and other nutritional elements would be fed in excess. The main culprit here would be too much calcium in the diet causing a more rapid deposition/growth of bone.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2 ... 88/related

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1 ... 22/related

Then you can also read “related articles” below these
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Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
Harvest Moon Drahthaars- vom Herbstmond
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Re: Another food question...

Postby slistoe » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:16 am

Since I can only read teh abstract I can't tell if there is more meat in those linked studies, but the abstract simply tells us to not overfeed large breed puppies.
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Re: Another food question...

Postby hicntry » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:02 am

Studies are just studies and you can find one with any conclusion you like. That is pretty much the way the folks doing the study come to their conclusions.. Logically, if a person is going to restricted a puppies calorie intake..../why feed puppy chows in the first place?? Puppies will consume what their bodies need and each pup is different. .....

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