Is the VHDF relevant?

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Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Fri May 18, 2018 2:32 am

As in do most people care about a title from this organization? I wanted to run my dog in a NAVHDA UT this fall but got annoyed with the fact that they want me to register my dog. Seems unnecessary just for a test.

So anyway I’m now looking into the VHDF for a versatile title because I don’t believe they want a registry like NAVHDA. My only hesitation is the weight that this title carries because if it’s not very relevant there’s no point for me. I mean let’s face it the only reason to pay $200+ for someone to tell you what you already know about your dog is for bragging rights and breeding advertisements.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby orhunter » Fri May 18, 2018 7:26 am

NAVHDA is an organization that is there to serve its members, that’s why membership and registering the dog is required. If you don’t register the dog, the test results would probably not be recorded? Important to many, maybe not to you. The hard core NAVHDA folks always have the Invitational carrot dangling in front of them which is very very enticing.

VHDF testing is for the person who wants a more accurate evaluation of the dog. This is the route I would take if I were to get another dog. Serious breeders should take a deeper look into VHDF.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Calvinator » Fri May 18, 2018 9:17 am

Orhunter,

You have to register you dog with most organizations to run their events. This is not unique to NAVHDA. As I am told, with the new insurance plan that NAVHDA has, it requires that anyone participating in a NAVHDA sanctioned event must be a member. That goes for volunteers, handlers, etc....It's all about covering your ass from legal action.
You won't be running in an American Field Trial without your dog being registered. Same goes for UKC, AKC and the rest. It's not something to whine about. You either participate or you don't.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby AverageGuy » Fri May 18, 2018 9:20 am

I have not been to a VHDF test. Spud's Breeder tests in it and likes it so hopefully he will add his views to the thread.

It will be a long while, if ever, before the VHDF organization has the level of information in a database that NAVHDA does, as well as the critical mass of members, judges, chapters etc. I would much rather see NAVHDA adopt a 12 point scoring system vs splinter resources into a fledgling organization.

The 12 point scoring is touted as the key improvement over NAVHDA. Maybe is my reaction to that.

While not having seen the 12 point scoring used in the VHDF, I have seen it used in the VDD/JGHV tests. My observations are that while the opportunity to use the full scale of 0-12 exists, the reality falls far short and most scores fall between 8 and 11. I have seen what I would call very average or even subpar performances receive an 8 score. Which makes the purported benefits of the larger scoring scale seem less often coming to actual fruition.

The ability to award a 12 vs the commonly seen 4 in NAVHDA does seem like a valid benefit of the 0-12 scoring as it provides better information to all that the Judges saw something truly outstanding in that area.

ForestDump,

I recall you are going to run an EP. Do you think there are many folks looking to breed an EP bitch looking to either VHDF or NAVHDA for the dog to pair up with? I believe either test venue provides some good information on the dog, but I do question how many EP fanciers, who are also breeding dogs, share that view.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Fri May 18, 2018 9:35 am

From what I’ve learned about the VHDF testing system is you have to be a member but they don’t require you to register your dog in their registry. I didn’t realize you had to for NAVHDA either until yesterday because I had always seen member/non member pricing on the tests.
AverageGuy wrote:ForestDump,

I recall you are going to run an EP. Do you think there are many folks looking to breed an EP bitch looking to either VHDF or NAVHDA for the dog to pair up with? I believe either test venue provides some good information on the dog, but I do question how many EP fanciers, who are also breeding dogs, share that view.


No I just trial the Pointers. I doubt I would go through the effort to run one through a versatile test for many of the reasons you gave. I have a GWP I trial and also run through hunt tests. I’m about to finish him him as an AKC SH and looking to put a versatile title on the dog rather than throw money at MH. I figure it’s a versatile dog might as well.

***Although through some research of his pedigree 7-8 generations back I found a strange coincidence where the Breeder was ran a lemon EP in NAVHDA and the wirehairs he ran had a comment of being unusually light brown. Then a black drahthaar was bred in and turned those lemon wirehaireds black. But that’s got nothing todo with me lol
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby AverageGuy » Fri May 18, 2018 9:49 am

FD, I think testing your GWP with good results in the VHDF or NAVHDA would add a lot of attraction/credentials to those seeking a dog to breed to. For the GWP breed it is a well respected comprehensive test. Given where you live the VHDF has a lot more followers/participants in your part of the country and so could be a good fit for your objective. Where I live, you would not find 5 in a 100 who have even heard of it and I would have to drive a really long distance to find a VHDF test which is why I haven't.

I lean towards if you have a GWP you are going to bred then registering the dog in NAVHDA and testing it there makes the most sense. It is the far more widely recognized and respected organization for both registry and testing.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Sat May 19, 2018 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ryanr » Fri May 18, 2018 8:10 pm

orhunter wrote:NAVHDA is an organization that is there to serve its members, that’s why membership and registering the dog is required. If you don’t register the dog, the test results would probably not be recorded? Important to many, maybe not to you. The hard core NAVHDA folks always have the Invitational carrot dangling in front of them which is very very enticing.

VHDF testing is for the person who wants a more accurate evaluation of the dog. This is the route I would take if I were to get another dog. Serious breeders should take a deeper look into VHDF.


Slight correction, NAVHDA only requires the testing dog be registered in NAVHDA in order to test, not the handler. However many chapters that host tests charge a surcharge (we charge $20) for handlers that aren't chapter members. If the dog isn't registered it can't test at all.

Calvin, the insurance policy does not require membership but it does require any non-members volunteering or non-members that are training or testing to at a chapter event to sign a waiver at each event. Anyone that isn't current on their international membership must sign too.

We have a duck search seminar we're hosting this weekend and I have to bring the waiver forms just in case.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Fri May 18, 2018 8:39 pm

ryanr wrote:
orhunter wrote:NAVHDA is an organization that is there to serve its members, that’s why membership and registering the dog is required. If you don’t register the dog, the test results would probably not be recorded? Important to many, maybe not to you. The hard core NAVHDA folks always have the Invitational carrot dangling in front of them which is very very enticing.

VHDF testing is for the person who wants a more accurate evaluation of the dog. This is the route I would take if I were to get another dog. Serious breeders should take a deeper look into VHDF.


Slight correction, NAVHDA only requires the testing dog be registered in NAVHDA in order to test, not the handler. However many chapters that host tests charge a surcharge (we charge $20) for handlers that aren't chapter members. If the dog isn't registered it can't test at all.

Calvin, the insurance policy does not require membership but it does require any non-members volunteering or non-members that are training or testing to at a chapter event to sign a waiver at each event. Anyone that isn't current on their international membership must sign too.

We have a duck search seminar we're hosting this weekend and I have to bring the waiver forms just in case.


It appears that NAVHDA has made a change from the past and starting in July it will require the owner of the dog being tested to purchase an international membership which from what I’ve gathered is $60. On top of the $25 to register the dog with NAVHDA. A bit steep for a one off test but I can see the merits for those heavily involved. Although if I had a choice I’d rather the membership be optional and just pay a small premium on the test and sign a waiver.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby Calvinator » Fri May 18, 2018 9:31 pm

As testing season begins, it's important to remember that as of July 1, 2018, all owners and handlers of dogs run in any NAVHDA test MUST be members of NAVHDA International with a valid membership number. The revised test entry forms with these fields are available under Forms Express on our website.
ALL Non-Members Participating in NAVHDA Events are Required to Sign a Release and Express Assumption of Risk Agreement (available under the Forms Express link at www.navhda.org/forms-express)
This year, for the first time in many years, our organization’s liability insurance coverage has been placed with a different insurance company, Philadelphia Insurance Company. As part of our insurance contract with Philadelphia, we are now required to secure a signed release and express assumption of risk agreement (the “release agreement”) from anyone who will be participating at one of our events that is not a member of the NAVHDA parent organization, also known as NAVHDA International. The following Q&A provides information on how we will utilize this release agreement in our organization.
Why do we need this release agreement and what is its purpose?
It is now a requirement of our insurance coverage to comply with this so as not to jeopardize our coverage.
Who has to sign the release agreement?
This release agreement must be signed by anyone who is not a member of NAVHDA International as defined below, and who intends to participate in ANY NAVHDA-sanctioned event, including but not limited to all tests, handler clinics, and training days. In addition, if the participant is a minor, the release agreement must be signed by a parent or other legal guardian.
Who is a member and who is a non-member?
An individual is considered a NAVHDA member if they have a NAVHDA member number and if their dues are paid in full for the year in which the event in question is occurring. This would include “life members” since they have a member number and their dues are paid in perpetuity. Some Chapters allow spouses and/or family members to be considered Chapter members without joining NAVHDA International; these individuals are considered non-members of NAVHDA International and must therefore sign the release agreement prior to actively participating in any NAVHDA International or Chapter events. A nonmember is defined as anyone who wishes to participate at a NAVHDA event, but who is not a member of NAVHDA International, and/or individuals who are former NAVHDA International members but whose dues are not paid in full, and/or is someone who intends to join NAVHDA International but does not yet have a member number or dues paid in full.
Under what circumstances is the release agreement required?
A release agreement is required when a non-member wishes to actively participate in a NAVHDA event. Practically speaking, this means anytime a non-member intends to:
• handle a dog in one of our hunt tests or training sessions
• follow a handler out in the field during a hunt test or training session
• volunteer to help at any NAVHDA sactioned event
As a side note, a non-member can never be allowed to handle a firearm at any of our events.
When is a release agreement NOT required?
A signed release agreement is not required for any non-member who is merely there to watch an event from a distance or stops by to have lunch, etc., but does not otherwise actively participate in any event or activities.
Is the release agreement signed yearly, or for each event?
A release agreement should be obtained each time a non-member wishes to participate in any NAVHDA sactioned event. It is the only way to ensure that we have a release agreement for that particular activity.
How do we access the release agreement?
The release agreement form is available on the NAVHDA webpage under Forms Express.
Who secures and retains the release agreement and for how long does it need to be retained?
The release agreement should be secured and retained by NAVHDA International for International events and by the local Chapter for Chapter events. The release agreement should be maintained for a minimum of one year after the expiration of the longest applicable statute of limitation for tort actions in the relevant jurisdiction. Any release agreement pertaining to a minor should be maintained for the period of the applicable statute of limitations after the minor reaches the age of majority.
Who is responsible for ensuring release agreements are signed prior to an event?
The hosting Chapter’s secretary or his/her designee is responsible for securing the signed release agreement from the appropriate people before and during a NAVHDA event. During their opening remarks, the Senior Judge is encouraged to inform all non-members that they must complete the release agreement if they have not already done so.
Who can “witness” the signature of the release agreement?
Any member of NAVHDA International that is at least 21 years old and who has read and understands the release agreement may witness the signature for a non-member.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby bwjohn » Fri May 18, 2018 11:44 pm

I really wish there was a VHDF close to me. I would do itnina heartbeat over navhda.

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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sat May 19, 2018 8:46 am

I think that the whole purpose of the “testing system” has eroded since its foundation in the 19th century…

The reason for testing isn’t to determine the “best”; it is to determine “trends”. And, for that there needs to be some sort of registry to maintain and massage the data into digestible bites.

The concept of champions was something Bodo tried to avoid when the Invitational concept was proposed. He knew it defeated the purpose of the system.
The JGHV is no different… members chase those high scoring dogs as the great hopes to the breed. And, we see the flavor of the month breedings piling up each year… then, keep quiet about the tooth problems, etc. after the 14 or so litters have finally been tested after they hit the ground.

The reality is that test results should mainly indicate the success (or failure) of the breedings through a statistical comparison of offspring of common parents. Those superstars are “Jack S$!#” unless they have siblings or half-siblings that exhibit similar traits, otherwise they are simply flashes in the pan.

If you look back far enough, you will see that some pretty average dogs produced some very nice offspring (CONSISTENTLY)… Hence, the true purpose and implementation of the system.

Call it NAVHDA, JGHV, VHDF, or whatever… it can be valuable. But, it is only as useful as those who implement it.

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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby boarhunter » Sun May 20, 2018 7:03 am

3drahthaars wrote:I think that the whole purpose of the “testing system” has eroded since its foundation in the 19th century…

The reason for testing isn’t to determine the “best”; it is to determine “trends”. And, for that there needs to be some sort of registry to maintain and massage the data into digestible bites.

The concept of champions was something Bodo tried to avoid when the Invitational concept was proposed. He knew it defeated the purpose of the system.
The JGHV is no different… members chase those high scoring dogs as the great hopes to the breed. And, we see the flavor of the month breedings piling up each year… then, keep quiet about the tooth problems, etc. after the 14 or so litters have finally been tested after they hit the ground.

The reality is that test results should mainly indicate the success (or failure) of the breedings through a statistical comparison of offspring of common parents. Those superstars are “Jack S$!#” unless they have siblings or half-siblings that exhibit similar traits, otherwise they are simply flashes in the pan.

If you look back far enough, you will see that some pretty average dogs produced some very nice offspring (CONSISTENTLY)… Hence, the true purpose and implementation of the system.

Call it NAVHDA, JGHV, VHDF, or whatever… it can be valuable. But, it is only as useful as those who implement it.

Regards,

3ds


With regard to the German testing system: No. German tests are primarily aimed at providing the dog with a hunting license, which is, by law, a requirement for using a dog to be hunted. Regulations are set by the Ministries of Agriculture and Forestry of each of the sixteen states (Germany is a Federal Republic), and these regulations vary from state to state, from slightly to significantly. As a general (simplified) rule, obtaining a license (in some states termed Jagdeignungspruefung, in others Gebrauchspruefung) needs successfully passing the HZP topics, plus the blood track part from VGP, plus, most important, all the obedience parts (i.e. during drive hunts) from VGP. A dog that does not fulfill the requirements is not allowed to be used, and this is taken seriously.

So now, the Ministries define the regulations and by-laws, but, of course, they do not have own judges. Instead, they make use of the JGHV judges. JGHV judging is (with some exceptions) not breed specific and not aimed (at least not primarily) to provide the breed clubs with information on performance. I would like to emphasize this again: Hunting dogs in Germany are tested because they must be, very much like airplane pilots must be trained and tested before flying, and the state authorities, not the breed clubs, set the rules. The majority of tested dogs belongs to simple hunters (i.e., me) in need of a certified dog. The sometimes complex relationship between ministries (regulations), JGHV (testing!), and breed clubs (breeding!) continuously produces an enormous output of articles and pamphlets in the German hunting community.

The success of the German versatile dog breeds (provided that, after all, one would admit that they are successful) is, IMO, mainly based on the pressure, which is put on the puppy-buyers or handlers to train (and test) the dogs to be "useful" by state regulations. As my Spanish friend and DK handler stated: "Your German dogs are so good because of your typical German obsession to regulate and control everything". With a grain of salt ......

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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun May 20, 2018 1:36 pm

Boarhunter,

Just to clarify I was under the impression that VGP was the "licensing" test... not the "breed" tests... is that not correct?

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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby ForestDump » Sun May 20, 2018 7:43 pm

I’m probably just going to go ahead with NAVHDA. Don’t know anyone who actually uses the VHDF evaluation. Spoke with a ray calkins today about it and he said he knows the guys who started VHDF and they were all quality but he recommended NAVHDA.
Last edited by ForestDump on Mon May 21, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the VHDF relevant?

Postby GRIFF MAN » Mon May 21, 2018 7:56 am

bwjohn wrote:I really wish there was a VHDF close to me. I would do itnina heartbeat over navhda.

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