Cold water and resistant Griff

[themud]

Have a 9 mo griff. Tracking and pointing are not a problem at all with this guy. Neither is the gun. I have hunted him on pheasants and I can shoot over him when he is at heel.

I am Rocky Mountain Chapter member and we were suppose to train swim on Saturday 4/7, but it snowed and they thought maybe too cold. My griff had a sibling there and he went in after a stick, so I was trying to get my griff in the water, which he did, but only to his chest. The water was actually quite warm as I had waiters on and was trying to get him to come out to me. I have a very strong bond with him, so thought he would come out.

Yesterday I went to a lake near by that is much colder and went out in my waiters. Again, he only went chest deep. I hope I didn't damage him, I eventally grabbed him and held him out and had him "swim" while I held him while I walked back to the shore.

He is testing June 1,2,3 for NA. That seems to be the only problem I have run into with him. I had someone tell me to get a live duck and his drive should override his fear.

Any help from here on out would help.

Themud

[Drahthaar1108]

Cold water can be tuff on a young dog, might want to wait another couple weeks and let it warm up more.
If you can get to a big enough lake, take a canoe, go out in the lake , he should follow . Forrest

[GRIFF MAN]

Agree !!

You really want to have the first exposure to water be a positive one. A young dog in cold water can be tough on them and make them think water is not fun.
I would back off a bit. When you find the right day then try again, use another dog that swims to help him get swimming or use a boat. How is your pup with bumpers ? Some dogs are crazy about bumpers, which is what you will use on your NA test, and will go in for a bumper.

Good luck,

GriffMan

[Meridiandave]

The first ace I compelled my griff to swim is across the boise river. There is a small island near a a bridge. The stream is about 20 yards across. I got my waders on and walked to the island. She followed and the water was deep enough to force her to swim.

One day, I was walking by a nearby reservoir. I walked out on the boat dock. She swam to me. She was swimming to me. And not for any bumper.


Then one day I was at a NAHVDA training. She would not swim for the bumper. A friend had told me to walk out in the shallows until she had to swim or was right on the edge to throw the bumper very close. Out of instinct she will grab the bumper. This worked like a charm. There is a big difference to the dog to swim to the bumper thrown from shore than grabbing a bumper while already swimming or close to it. A friend of mine uses hot dog juice to get the dog bumper crazy. I have not tried that yet.

Another thing that we used on a young puppy was using a flightless pigeon. I would be a little hesitant of doing this being so close to the test, but it totally works. However, you dont want to have the dog lose interest in the bumpers at the time of the test.

I have not done this yet, but in Bob Farris' book he talks about carrying the dog into ever deeper water and having it swim to shore. Essentially reversing the process. Whatever you do praise the dog when it begins swimming.

Just my .02.

[themud]

Thanks guys.

I think I might put him off until the August test. He will be 13 mo then. I am in northern CO and have walked him rain, snow, 0 degree weather etc. The only time he seemed pissed to be in the cold was when his paws were full of packed snow. I figured with two coats and knowing he will be in 10 degree weather hunting ducks 45-50 degree water wouldn't be too bad. Hell I swam the same lake in March to May getting ready for a triathlon.

I will back off. I did take him out where he couldn't touch and then held him while he kind of swam to shore, maybe 10 feet out. Praised him like crazy. Really a great dog and seems to be his achilles heel so far.

He likes bumpers for about 3-6 throws, so have been stopping the bumper to keep him excited about it. He is fetching fool for his rag toys and rope toys and tennis ball. I have the books who say live birds as a last resort. To tape a leg and pull feathers to keep them in place. I think he would go nuts over them. I do have a kayak I put on this lake all summer as well. I will pull that out soon.

He seemed to have an allergy or yeast going on so the vet (a personal friend) gave him a shot of Cytopoint and I am not allowed to give him any treats other than the kibble he eats, so as far as Cheetos or hot dogs go they are out of the question until mid late may.

[JONOV]

Have a 9 mo griff. Tracking and pointing are not a problem at all with this guy. Neither is the gun. I have hunted him on pheasants and I can shoot over him when he is at heel.

I am Rocky Mountain Chapter member and we were suppose to train swim on Saturday 4/7, but it snowed and they thought maybe too cold. My griff had a sibling there and he went in after a stick, so I was trying to get my griff in the water, which he did, but only to his chest. The water was actually quite warm as I had waiters on and was trying to get him to come out to me. I have a very strong bond with him, so thought he would come out.

Yesterday I went to a lake near by that is much colder and went out in my waiters. Again, he only went chest deep. I hope I didn't damage him, I eventally grabbed him and held him out and had him "swim" while I held him while I walked back to the shore.

He is testing June 1,2,3 for NA. That seems to be the only problem I have run into with him. I had someone tell me to get a live duck and his drive should override his fear.

Any help from here on out would help.

Themud

I dealt with something similar.

At 6-7 months my GWP was reluctant. A pro trainer advised me to buy a duck on craigslist and let him chase it on the pond. I modified that advice and took my dog to a nearby Goose Septic Tank (lake in a city park,) and turned him loose. Within five minutes, he was swimming 500 yards out into the lake.

I also tied bits of a bird to a bumper, swimming every day and removing bits of the bird til it was just the bumper. I had him reliably swimming, in streams near my house, city ponds, the pond where he would test...

And then, the day of the test, the weather turned cold and windy. He did swim, without a bird, for the judges, but took some convincing .

In retrospect, I wonder how good of an idea the whole "chase geese, chase bird bits" was. But, its impossible to say and its easier to criticize decision making watching game film than it is to know what is ultimately the best course of action.

One thought, that by June the day will be warm, swim is often done at the end of the day, and there is every chance the dog is HOT and willing to take a swim.

[themud]

Excellent. I do have two oxygenated ponds/lakes that I live on. They are part of the golfer's lakes, but are used by everyone to swim and paddle on. There is a spot where some geese are crossing from river to pond, but the bank is fairly steep and some cattails.

Maybe let him loose? Still too cold to let him loose?

[themud]

double post

[AverageGuy]

My bias is to do what is in the best interest of developing your pup to be a bold waterfowl dog in the long run vs preparing for an NA test which is looming near term.

I agree with not forcing anything at this point until the water warms up. You are correct the dog will be working in much colder water and temps once it is hunting waterfowl but it is still important to not rush the pup into cold water now. If that requires moving to a later NA test date so be it is my input.

Any pup worth having will chase a live duck for a very long time. My current pup at 5 months of age chased the first one it ever saw for over 11 minutes, when there was enough separation for me to shoot the duck at that point. That approach can also wait until the water is warmer, as while it will be good development for the pup relative to hunting waterfowl it will likely not have much impact on its willingness to swim for a bumper in cold water in the near term, is my prediction. That is the whole reason why NAVHDA recognizes using a bird to entice a puppy to swim is not the best indication of the puppy's willingness to enter water otherwise.

My current pup's interest in bumpers was less than prior pups, and similar to what you describe for your pup. I waited until the water warmed up and then if he felt he had something more interesting to do than swim for a bumper I tossed, I would dive in myself and start swimming for the bumper. He would immediately follow me in and then beat me to the bumper ... I wore a life jacket which made it easy for me to swim and hold him up when he arrived at me. Worked well with that pup.

[themud]

Averageguy.

Thanks. I will work with that advice. I will move his test date.

[themud]

Anyone do the NA only? I am not interested in showing my dog or competing in obedience, hunting or breed confirmation.

I know all the things he could learn, but does testing lead him to learn or is it the training that I can do? We only meet once per month and you can see his progress toward NA.

[ryanr]

Anyone do the NA only? I am not interested in showing my dog or competing in obedience, hunting or breed confirmation.

I know all the things he could learn, but does testing lead him to learn or is it the training that I can do? We only meet once per month and you can see his progress toward NA.

I think better than half the people that get a NAVHDA pyp likely only do NA, as s help to their breeder (and some breeders require puppy buyers to run NA.) And there's nothing wrong with just doing NA. A UT test is a serious commitment in not just time but in $$. It takes a lot of chukars and ducks to make a good UT ready dog. And you can't just train one or 2 weekends a month and be successful in UT. And a lot if peop le have otjer commitments, family, etc. But just like in NA, you and your dog get a lot out of preparing for each test level. It helps give focus and goal setting to your training so you can hopefully have a better hunting companion.

I don't know when your NA test is but here's my advice: Go thru NA. Then enjoy this hunting season with your dog, let it make mistakes and learn from the birds. Shoot only what the dog points (and preferably holds to your flush.) Then next year decide whether you want to at least continue training toward a possible goal if running UT in a year or two. Whether your dog runs UT or not, if you train for it even a little bit you will have a better hunting companion for sure. My .02 anyway.

[themud]

Ok.

Yeah. Buyers from this breeder signed a commitment to do at least NA and the test I am doing is first weekend in August. He is doing great, just need to get him use to water. He is a Griff and will do upland only. The training is very good and I try to train him twice a day and 3 times on Fri/Sat/Sun, with the occasional day or or three off a week to give him and me a break.

His "Whoa" was actually the hardest thing to train, but from advice on here I got a pallet board that I have him "heel" across and he stops on "whoa" on it and at times without.

I am more interested in an obedient companion that hunts. I would love to bring him to my office all day when he is out of hyper age. As for perfect hunting, as long as he doesn't run to the horizon and boot lick, fetches the bird to my hand I will be one happy Griff owner.

The Rocky Mountain Chapter NAVHDA with Sara and Craig Hessecker are awesome trainers and very patient with the dogs and handlers. Fun to go to the training, but $ and time is the killer.

[Duckdon]

Any reason to not find a pond that is shallow, dark bottomed and go from there? I start pups with older dogs or on live ducks on land first and then in shallow water. So far it seem to work well. Then progress to deeper water with the live ducks. I don't know much about cold water or cold conditions but living in Alaska we need to get creative.
Don and Crew.

[themud]

We did the NA test. I feel awful.

Perfect track, perfect water. Pointing 1, desire 2, cooperation 1. I think the desire was a bad call. He's a griff and tends to jog when he hunts and doesn't sprint. He found all 4 birds, but they are saying he only partly pointed one. He caught 2 and gave them up and in fact brought one up to our feet. The two that flew off he chased about 60 yards and stopped and I had to pull him back into the hunt. Cooperation was probably my fault due to the fact that he comes 100% of the time when we were out alone, but wouldn't come when he was hunting until he got the bird in his mouth. I kept whistling and calling which probably told them he wasn't obeying.

I was most worried about water and that was actually the only one I really concentrated on. I let him run in a field daily for an hour and drug a dead pheasant about once per month down through neighbors yards to let him track, but I didn't train point because he usually did it briefly when out playing.