Hard mouth Pup

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Hard mouth Pup

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:23 pm

I have a DD pup ,he will be 8 months old 4/1/18
I am in the 4th week of force fetch, he is soft mouth on bumpers , PVC pipe, wooden dowel , BUT a fresh quail he is very hard mouth, all of a sudden, a month ago he was soft mouth on all birds.Forrest
Drahthaar1108
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby blue04 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:39 pm

This is not uncommon. He's really excited. I'd take a few days off and let things cool down. Then I'd try a hard frozen bird for couple of sessions before coming back to a fresh killed bird.
blue04
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1647
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:21 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Doc E » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:57 pm

IMO, you should ditch the quail and go to pigeons or small ducks.
.
Doc E
HR UH MHR WR SR Casey RIP my friend :(
HRCH HR UH Tucker 1420 HR Ch. points :D
HRCH HR UH Weezle 265 HR Ch. points :)
User avatar
Doc E
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2296
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:19 am
Location: N.E. WA state

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:12 am

The Perfect Retrieve DVD series has a good segment on Hard Mouth.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:09 am

when I used to train labradors I could use the same pigeon several times until it got wet and then wait a day or so and use it again. I only needed a couple in my pen. Now, with my German speaking dogs nothing seems to come back alive.

AG, what does the Perfect Start Retrieve DVD say about dealing with it?
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:06 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:when I used to train labradors I could use the same pigeon several times until it got wet and then wait a day or so and use it again. I only needed a couple in my pen. Now, with my German speaking dogs nothing seems to come back alive.

AG, what does the Perfect Start Retrieve DVD say about dealing with it?


It centers around really crisp obedience, keeping the dog moving and complying with commands that accompany retrieving. In effect controlling the dog's mind through here/come, hold and heel commands so it is focused on that vs mouthing would be the centerpiece of what he goes through and demonstrates.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1807
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:16 am

Frozen birds first, then thawed, then freshly killed, finally live
AlaskaMagnum
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:56 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:48 pm

Thanks for the advise.
It is not just mouthing the fresh bird, it is bone crushing the bird, I hate a hard mouth dog.
I have pushed his gums into his teeth and told him easy, then had him hold the bird. Forrest
Drahthaar1108
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Willie T » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:59 pm

Do a lot of work with frozen birds. ALOT. Get your obedience nice and tight. Then do more work with frozen birds. When you think he has it do some more work with frozen birds. When you transition to thawed birds do it in the water and you be right at the edge. Use the tight OB for a quick delivery at heel. Set him up to succeed. The frozen birds work. Once he gets enough birds in his mouth that don't crush, he will develop the habits you are looking for. Then he should be able to calm down and should handle them better.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:04 pm

No advice you get on this board will help you, if you feel you are not seeing a resentment reaction. These typically surface during collar breaking. My advice is, find a VERY reliable pro, show him the dog and have him evaluate it, then if he thinks he can help, send him the dog. I don't believe any truly hard mouthed dog can be CURED but they can be controlled. Don't waste time, he's still young and trainable. Take him to a pro for evaluation and possible training.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Willie T » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:39 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:No advice you get on this board will help you, if you feel you are not seeing a resentment reaction. These typically surface during collar breaking. My advice is, find a VERY reliable pro, show him the dog and have him evaluate it, then if he thinks he can help, send him the dog. I don't believe any truly hard mouthed dog can be CURED but they can be controlled. Don't waste time, he's still young and trainable. Take him to a pro for evaluation and possible training.


The OP has a young dog. If I understand his post, the hard mouth is something that has just manifested. The OP needs to curb it immediately before it becomes a habit and instead develop desirable bird handling habits. Pretty straightforward and not a new problem among bird dogs.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:59 pm

Willie, when a dog CRUSHES the bones of a bird, it is something you better worry about. Entirely different that a dog that mouths and rolls a bird. When I was a Pro and was brought one of these dog's, it was THE problem that terrified me.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Willie T » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:53 pm

GH, agreed. It is something you need to get a handle on quickly. If it is left unchecked and becomes an established behavior it is difficult to remedy. That is why I recommended the OP use frozen birds. It quickly takes that behavior off the table until satisfactory bird handling habits are developed and has worked well for me when implemented as soon as the behavior is observed.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby booger » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:31 pm

In my training group I've seen lots of dogs do this with quail, some with pigeons, less with larger birds like pheasant or ducks. My dog will roll birds around in her mouth but she's also crunched pigeons. But she will also bring back ducks still alive. I think this is very common with quail especially.

I've heard a lot of things on the subject, some people say frozen birds will make it worse, some people say to use a bird wrapped in barb wire (or some version of it), some say to let the dog crunch them as you don't want to create a negative association with the birds.

With my PR group we'd let the dogs crunch them, but we'd run with the dog on the lead so they couldn't do it as much. The trainer told us, it was partly due to the dog being excited and we were trying to manage that excitement. It was very hard to let happen. That being said, she's great on ducks and pheasants and will not crunch them.

I have no idea what the answer is, just trying to make you feel better about your situation.
booger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:24 am

Re: Hard mouth Pup

Postby Willie T » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:08 am

I am a quail hunter. This dog is owned by me. In his first season(at around 4 months) he decided it was big fun to crunch a fresh shot bird. I dealt with it immediately just as I described. Here he is at less than a year and a half. He has a live wild quail in his mouth he retrieved after my son shot it. If you look you will see the bird has its head up and is looking around. The dog learned good bird handling habits before the behavior was ingrained and does an excellent job with quail now.
IMG_1923.JPG

It may or may not work for you but I have been successful with my dogs. Letting it continue chomping birds will reinforce the behavior. It will become increasingly more difficult for you or another trainer to curtail the more it happens.
Willie
Last edited by Willie T on Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Next

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests