FF During Season????

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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:59 pm

Drahthaar1108 wrote:Not familiar with Jowl Pinch, anyone care to elaborate ? Forrest


Take some time and page up. Described it there.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ANick » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:25 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Drahthaar1108 wrote:Not familiar with Jowl Pinch, anyone care to elaborate ? Forrest


Take some time and page up. Described it there.


The above on Page 4, Dec. 15.

On the video (Dec. 16th) I put up, Jen covered that in the early part of the video.

BTW guys, apologies for the focus issues in that video. The Lumix DMC-ZS100 I shot that with was on its first outing with me.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby JONOV » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:41 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Drahthaar1108 wrote:Not familiar with Jowl Pinch, anyone care to elaborate ? Forrest


Take some time and page up. Described it there.

Having read it, and talked to several pros and experienced amateurs along the way, I can’t believe it was never brought up. I distinctly remember buttonholing a guy about struggles with the ear pinch; having him flip my dogs ear open, and show me exactly where to pinch to make him scream so I could pop the bumper in his mouth.

I also wonder if this wouldn’t cut down on the trade of bottlecap/zip tie thumb rings I see at training days for difficult cases.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:31 am

crackerd wrote:JONOV, what guidance are you using? Been noted here often that a very good "Paint (FF) by Numbers" procedural for getting you into and through force fetch, with every step (or misstep) explicated is "the Orange Book" by the American Hunting Dog Club http://www.ahdc.org/ahdcsite/training.php
MG


I have the "Orange Book". It's just more about jowl pinching and ear pinching to get your dog to hold and reach for dummies so I don't think JONOV would be interested. Rynar might though.

Once again, there is a paradigm shift about how we go about teaching animals (yes, dogs) a number of fundamental tasks. The transition might not be complete before you old farts give it up but assuredly it's on the way. Maybe the next edition of the "Orange Book" will include some of it?
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:15 am

AverageGuy wrote:Bruce, take a look at my post under NAVDHA just now.


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21776

That is really something! There's nothing quite like the bond between us humans and our dogs.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:37 am

JONOV wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Drahthaar1108 wrote:Not familiar with Jowl Pinch, anyone care to elaborate ? Forrest


Take some time and page up. Described it there.

Having read it, and talked to several pros and experienced amateurs along the way, I can’t believe it was never brought up. I distinctly remember buttonholing a guy about struggles with the ear pinch; having him flip my dogs ear open, and show me exactly where to pinch to make him scream so I could pop the bumper in his mouth.

I also wonder if this wouldn’t cut down on the trade of bottlecap/zip tie thumb rings I see at training days for difficult cases.


I don't quite get it either. With a propper jowl pinch, much of the ear pinch is eliminated. People are in such a rush today but what they don't realize is that the extra time and step early, saves time and distress to the dog later. I've never bit ears, used bottle caps or zip ties but I do have a special FF collar from the old days I use. One key to the ear is propper preparation, another is, like the ecollar, a quick sharp pain of extremely short duration so the dog is able to perform the given task.

Now all that being said, some dogs are nearly untrainable. I found them mostly in GSP lines. No matter the method used, they balk at anything they HAVE to do. They, fortunately, are quite rare.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:48 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
crackerd wrote:JONOV, what guidance are you using? Been noted here often that a very good "Paint (FF) by Numbers" procedural for getting you into and through force fetch, with every step (or misstep) explicated is "the Orange Book" by the American Hunting Dog Club http://www.ahdc.org/ahdcsite/training.php
MG


I have the "Orange Book". It's just more about jowl pinching and ear pinching to get your dog to hold and reach for dummies so I don't think JONOV would be interested. Rynar might though.

Once again, there is a paradigm shift about how we go about teaching animals (yes, dogs) a number of fundamental tasks. The transition might not be complete before you old farts give it up but assuredly it's on the way. Maybe the next edition of the "Orange Book" will include some of it?


The old ways are the best and as long as there are field trials and untractable dog's will never be given up. They're too effective and produce dog's far faster than PR methods and produce more reliable dog's.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:15 am

I have the "orange book" it is the foundation of the method I've been taught. However, we still use a lot of praise in the teaching phase, and even treats with certain young dogs if they are so motivated but the method of the orange book is still the backbone of what we're accomplishing.

Regarding the video, it was nice and I guess the only thing I had with it was I didn't think she gave the dog the opportunity to actually even hold the dummy until about the 8 minute mark. Before that it was her hand on the dummy in the dog's mouth and in and out immediately. And the dog being allowed to kind of do what it wanted in between. I will say though that when the dog did have that chance to hold it I liked how it popped its mouth right open and even reached s bit for that dummy. That was really nice. I would like to see one of her finished dogs

I use a lot of praise at that stage but I also expect the dog to be a little more focused. I keep the sessions really short though and I always give a happy release command letting the dog know it's "free" and I'll either put it up for a bit with a treat or we'll go do something fun and then come back for another quick session just to try to build.
Last edited by ryanr on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:23 am

AG, when did you get the latest issue of VHD? Mine didn't come yet.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:53 am

In 2005 I was using the Orange Book to guide FF on one of my griffons. The book says at one point, "Pinch the finger and thumb together hard and quickly so that the dog yelps... if you cannot make him yelp with your fingers alone , you may need a hard object (metal) placed on one side of the ear to press against. The yelp is his way of saying 'OK you win'." So I did that and my dog screamed bloody murder. I thought her freaking out was a little over the top so the next day I said "fetch", but before I could pinch the ear the dog screamed again. I waited a week and she screamed again. Jesus, all I had said was, "Fetch"!! I eventually solved the problem by dropping the pinch, changing from a "fetch" command to "take it" command, and switching to the ecollar with continuous stimulation on level 1 with the command to "take it". Some time later I was able to move back to "fetch" and dropped the "take it" command. That's basically what I do today, but only after the dog knows the commands "fetch", "hold", and "drop" with PR and is compliant with them. The dog never liked the collar much but she accepted it enough to get her HRCH Retriever championship and would have never gotten there without it.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:21 am

Actually the book is pretty specific as to when you can move on to each next step. Each step has a series of questions for the handler to answer to know if the dog is ready to move onto the next step. If all the questions cant be answered, you're not ready to move on. And the ear pinch comes long after the dog should have been TAUGHT (not forced) a pretty thorough understanding of what Fetch, Hold & Out means. Yes, the book does want the first ear pinch "to really count," it says the dog should vocalize on the first pinch. After that, it's not concerned whether it's enough to make it vocalize. (This is where Evan Graham has a different feeling on ear pinch, he advocates he pinches only hard enough for the dog to understand and comply. He doesn't care if it ever vocalizes.)

Here's the thing, based on the dog's I've seen I agree with GH that with proper use of the jowl pinch beforehand (combined with plenty of praise during this teaching phase) seems to do a very good job of setting the stage for a smooth transition where the ear pinch is done 2 maybe 3 times and you're done with it and the dog moves thru the finishing stages of the entire fully trained retrieve process. Today, even with still using the process in the orange book as a backbone, I think more of the teaching of it (the retrieve process) is done using praise and PR concepts. I think where a trainer can sometimes fall short is when they become fixed on "I'm only a traditionalist" or "I'm only PR trainer."
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:01 pm

Yes, I don't want the dog to really vocalize unless I have an A-Hole to work with. A whimper is fine. I told my clients for them to visualize themselves in pain. Too great and you only scream, you can't perform any task. Too little and you do nothing. Remember on the playground getting your arm twisted behind your back? Same thing. YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE A DOG SCREAM IN PAIN! No one ever did other than the sadists. A lot of the early WEST COAST FF was based on the dog transitioning to the 70 collar. The dog's all screamed with the 70 because there was no lesser stimulation so the dog had to learn to deal with pain. That's where the stick was so vital in the transition.

Today everything is different yet people won't admit or see it. Wake up people, everything is different today. Back in the 70's had we had the TT500 collar, history would have been written differently.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:15 pm

OK,
Some interesting stuff.

Ryan, Your pro may not have told you not to FF during season, but he didnt give it as an option. again, ask if he has ever done it? And what bad outcome did it have.

So, my question was can why cant we FF during Season? I would like the Pros to keep in mind that there are young folks here that have been advised not to do it.

So here are the options,

1, We hunt the dog and let him munch birds all season. (Gonehuntin says he would enforce steady to WSF. But there are really issues with restricting retrieves. If its too much to FF during season, than correcting WSF issues will be a real headache.

2. We can take a break and FF before going afield. Of course the downside is fewer bird contacts. I have a friend whos dog had major surgery and missed out on several weeks at least of its first season. Is the dog ruined? should he get another? Or is the dogs breeding going to overcome the loss of exposure. If your answer is keep the dog, then you just gave up any argument against taking a break and FF.

3. We can FF and hunt. Once again, we will only enforce in the field what we have proofed in the yard and prepared the dog for. There wont be any issues because we wont create them . Theres NO undo pressure in the field because we wont apply any. The pressure is in the yard.. Willie said it would be OK for OB training in the yard but not enforce in the field. Whats the difference?

Ive found over the years that there are accepted principles we are told, but they dont always hold true. Like you have to have a pointer to hunt upland. I was told not to throw marks for pup while FF. The problem was they didint tell me until after I had been doing it for years. So I work on the table. Then take pup out and throw bumpers. I dont enforce any thing that hasnt been proofed. Never hurt a thing. What happens in the yard stays in the yard until we take it someplace else.

I wouldnt take a dog into the field that wasnt prepared to retrieve to hand. I want that taken care of before we go afield so I can focus on one thing, the dog pointing. But I believe its worth correcting the issue without going through the whole season entrenching a bad habit.

A couple of other notes.

Do you know what the nice German Fraulein does to make a living? Shes a magician and she uses it in the video. While you were watching the hand with the cheese doing PR, her other had was using pressure conditioning. So its not a video about PR, its a video about Jowl pressure as Gonhuntin suggested.

So no, I dont believe PR is here to stay. It has a long ways to go. I use PR methods but PR cant take you to the dogs best work.

Also , I dont beleiev PR provides a better relationship. Dogs love discipline. While I cant really put in words how it works. Ive seen with my own dogs the adavnatge of using PC.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby crackerd » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:21 am

ryanr wrote:Actually the book is pretty specific as to when you can move on to each next step. Each step has a series of questions for the handler to answer to know if the dog is ready to move onto the next step. If all the questions cant be answered, you're not ready to move on...


And therein, Bruce, lies the rationale for recommending the "Orange Book" (a/k/a "Training the Sporting Dog") to JONOV - the step-by review of what you should do if you perceive that the dog didn't do as expected with each successive step in imparting/teaching/training FF.

JONOV to the prophet GH, Chapter 1, Verse III:

That's easy for a retired pro to say. You've gone through it with how many dogs? And is it fair to assume that at various points in the process, you had other trainers to troubleshoot with? I only say that because understanding the dog's reaction and how to react to it when it isn't in the book you're reading is frustrating. It isn't difficult in the sense of requiring lots of skills, its difficult recognizing an "alternative behavior presentation" and knowing how to handle it. Is it the dog shutting down? Is it avoidance? Is it a confused dog? And, as an amateur, trying to balance not letting the dog win and ending on a high note with not losing your won temper or getting frustrated.


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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ANick » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:47 pm

Kiger2 wrote:OK,
Some interesting stuff.

<< Snipped for brevity >>

A couple of other notes.

Do you know what the nice German Fraulein does to make a living? Shes a magician and she uses it in the video. While you were watching the hand with the cheese doing PR, her other had was using pressure conditioning. So its not a video about PR, its a video about Jowl pressure as Gonhuntin suggested.

So no, I dont believe PR is here to stay. It has a long ways to go. I use PR methods but PR cant take you to the dogs best work.

Also , I dont beleiev PR provides a better relationship. Dogs love discipline. While I cant really put in words how it works. Ive seen with my own dogs the adavnatge of using PC.


Kiger,
Watch that video again. Jen explains exactly how she's gripping that muzzle and how much 'pressure' she'd putting on that pup. There's no slight of hand involved.
Mind, this pup is in front of a bunch of people and other dogs that she's had a day or so to socialize some. The pup's feet are on the floor with a lead held by one of these strangers. The pup is also just 5 months old.
There's 'pressure' to put the buck in the mouth. Really light pressure, but still. Kept in the jaws by hand. Release word is given. Praise and cheese for a good job.
Repeat.
The pup picks up pretty quick that buck in mouth has something to do with a treat. No buck. No treat. Something wasn't right?? Pup gets a 'No' and no treat. Pup is learning what is expected, what the task is and that there's something in it for her she likes.. cheese.

Compare this to a dog strapped by the collar to a post with a toe-hitch. Work on that dog for a 5 -10 minutes and stop to talk to the group in front of you. While you're talking, I'm thinking that the dog on the table would be more interested in being somewhere else... anywhere else, much less even thinking of trying to put it's nose on that bumper some more?

There's pressure, and then there's Pressure.
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