FF During Season????

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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:34 pm

crackerd wrote:Willie, dunno what you deleted above, but no matter - just wanted to say that is a lovely hold of a black goose by your GSP pup for "early posterity." And your thinking about sorting the pup's retrieve ahead of the season mirrors mine.

MG


Kind of a strange post by Kiger, don't ya think?
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby crackerd » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:12 pm

Nah, thinking he's got what has worked for him at the crux of his post - and wanting to know if anybody else is simpatico with that approach.

Funny thing that works for me, anyway, is putting something (game) in their gob that's simply too big for them to "commit" hardmouthing on. But you also would surely know that modern-day retriever field trialers who are going to put their pup with a pro (or who are going to do the basics themselves[!]) might not even give it any bird exposure at all before it goes away at 6 months. Got one of those - latter - in one of my training groups now, and I'm pretty amazed by the "abstinence diet" of birds because the pup (6 months) hasn't yet been FF'd.

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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Willie T » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:09 pm

Crackered, thank you for the kind words. He is a slick coated Pudelpointer that looks a lot like a GSP. I spoke with Bob Farris about the possibility of a slick coated Pudelpointer being suited to Texas weather and he was able to oblige me.

GH, I am still waiting for Kiger to drop the other shoe and tell us all what he is trying to get at. So yeah, kinda odd to me too...
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:47 pm

OK,
Heres the deal. Theres no reason at all not to FF during season. We dont FF in the field, we FF in the yard.

Dogs are place oriented . What we do on a training table has to be transferred to the field. We can do 2 or 3 sessions one day, then go hunt the next. Then go back and train. We just do not enforce anything in the field that hasnt been fully proofed in the yard. The dog wont care. He doesnt care because he does not associate training at home with hunting. Its totally different things.

Doesnt matter what stage youre at. Pup will pick up right where he left off. Ive been FF a lab for months. He belongs to my sons sister in law. Its taking months because hes only here when it works for both of us. Due to vacations, hunting, dogs in heat etc..... He has been gone for weeks. When he gets here, I put the collar on and walk towards the table and he runs and jumps up and we pick up right where we left off. Theres nothing confusing. He knows the drill.

I have done this with other dogs.

I just believe its nonsense to take a dog hunting that is munching on birds. Doesnt take long to fix. But if you have to hunt the dog, at least get FF going so the dogs not getting bad mouth habits conditioned.

Bruce, Lets say your right about the stress of FF . What difference does it make when its done?

I think the vast majority of not FF during season is due to how how hard the trainers used to be on dogs. So they just advised against it, nobody really ever tried it, they just hear and read that you shouldnt.

Before you ignite the keyboard. Take a day or two and just think about it. Why cant it be possible?
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:39 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Bruce, Lets say your right about the stress of FF . What difference does it make when its done?


Kiger,

Dogs are indeed place oriented so you could well be right about it not be a problem doing FF during the hunting season.

As far as traditional FF goes, in general I think it's one of those training methods that had a purpose at one time but now there are better and less stressful ways to get to the same point. FF is not done in all countries (and certainly not done by everybody in this country) but I agree with you that most of the time you can't tell one dog from the other. Just because that's so doesn't mean I agree with you that methods don't matter. Traditionally, pros needed to get their dogs to NEVER drop a bird and, since the ecollar hadn't been developed, the not so kind process of FF creeped into the training repertoire. With the advent of the ecollar lots of draconian stuff went out the window - but this one has persisted.

What you're after with FF is for a dog to pick up and hold a bird until you ask it to release it to you and to do so without ruining the meat. I know you can get there rather quickly by asking the dog if it would consider trading a dowel for a piece of kibble or (for a reward) asking it to pick up a dowel off the floor and hold it. Then, once the dog knows exactly what the command "hold" or "fetch" or "drop" means, you can use the collar to reinforce your agreement.

Proponents of traditional FF think the way to get to that point is by aversive means - i.e. pressure. Think of all the problems folks encounter not understanding how to do it correctly. Think of Evan Graham, who dedicated his SmartFetch book to one of his dogs who had been getting "pressure" in FF training for eight weeks and "had yet to reach for a bumper." For eight weeks he'd been pinching this dog's ear and he had the temerity to brag about it!

Anyway, that's my take on all this. One day, traditional FF will be replaced by PR means and we (and our dogs) will be the better for it. I'm enclosing a clip I made of one of my dogs a few years ago who, at four months of age, learned in one week the rudiments of fetch, hold, and give. She also had learned to sit, come, stay, and heel. Later, the ecollar was used to reinforce what she learned. I wouldn't use "clicker" training today but it works well just the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9lCsOxhu4
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:30 pm

Bruce, actually regarding the Labrador mentoned in Smartfetch, I think that was before the ear pinch phase, wasn't it? I'll have to look back over my copy again. I believe that dog sailed thru the rest of FF and went on to be champion.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:15 pm

No one has to FF until they do.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:20 pm

ryanr wrote:Bruce, actually regarding the Labrador mentoned in Smartfetch, I think that was before the ear pinch phase, wasn't it? I'll have to look back over my copy again. I believe that dog sailed thru the rest of FF and went on to be champion.


According to what he's written, the Labrador retriever's FF must have been during the ear pinch phase because on pp. 41 he says, "I teach only the ear-pinch method of Force Fetch" and on PP. 53 he says to "increase ear pressure to the point where the dog overcomes his reluctance and reaches for the bumper." I couldn't see a publishing date on my copy though.

Also according to his book, Star "acquired seventeen Derby points, took four Qualifying second places ... and has been a marvelous duck dog for all of her twelve years." I'm not aware that Graham ever titled a Field Champion with any dog.

As an aside, Ryanr, I thought you were doing FF on your pup. I'm not sure but didn't you stop the process during the hunting season?
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:33 pm

I believe Evan told me he had four FC's, though they were probably client dog's and not his own. Not unusual for a Pro not to have his own FC. Creates all sorts of problems.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:53 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I believe Evan told me he had four FC's, though they were probably client dog's and not his own. Not unusual for a Pro not to have his own FC. Creates all sorts of problems.


the question would be did he title them?
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:10 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I believe Evan told me he had four FC's, though they were probably client dog's and not his own. Not unusual for a Pro not to have his own FC. Creates all sorts of problems.


the question would be did he title them?


Would it matter as long as he trained them? Not uncommon for a pro to train and dog then send it home with occasional refreshers on it while the owner titles it. That's probably the common way it's done. Not many people have the money to keep the dog with a pro for training, campaigning and winter camp. Actually, I don't believe Rex ever ran a dog and titled it. He was a trainer only.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:19 pm

Sounds like semantics. I think he was a good trainer from all that I've heard.
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Re:

Postby ryanr » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:50 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
ryanr wrote:Bruce, actually regarding the Labrador mentoned in Smartfetch, I think that was before the ear pinch phase, wasn't it? I'll have to look back over my copy again. I believe that dog sailed thru the rest of FF and went on to be champion.


According to what he's written, the Labrador retriever's FF must have been during the ear pinch phase because on pp. 41 he says, "I teach only the ear-pinch method of Force Fetch" and on PP. 53 he says to "increase ear pressure to the point where the dog overcomes his reluctance and reaches for the bumper." I couldn't see a publishing date on my copy though.

Also according to his book, Star "acquired seventeen Derby points, took four Qualifying second places ... and has been a marvelous duck dog for all of her twelve years." I'm not aware that Graham ever titled a Field Champion with any dog.

As an aside, Ryanr, I thought you were doing FF on your pup. I'm not sure but didn't you stop the process during the hunting season?


Yes he uses the ear pinch method, that doesn't mean the dog was being ear pinched for 8 weeks to make it reach. That was my point, not whether or not he teaches ear pinch or not. Both of my dog were reaching just prior to ear pinch.

Sorry Bruce, I didnt memorize the dog's resume I just seemed to remember he said it went on to be an outstanding dog, I thought he said champion too but apparently I was wrong.

Yeah, I got my younger dog basically to the point of ear pinch just as hunting season rolled in and at that point I knew I had a decision to make. So I talked with my breeder/ training mentor and I came to the decision for me and the dog that it was best to just hunt rather than try to do both. Since we hadn't ear pinched yet I was able to make that choice and as he said after the season I can pick up right where we left off and not really miss a beat. I kinda think it might be harder on the trainer than the dog to do both FF and hunt at the same time. The trainer is testing ro get the dog thru the stages of FF and make necessary corrections and then has to always be careful not to use the FETCH word or make corrections while hunting.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby crackerd » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:16 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I believe Evan told me he had four FC's, though they were probably client dog's and not his own. Not unusual for a Pro not to have his own FC. Creates all sorts of problems.


Bruce Schwartz wrote:Sounds like semantics. I think he was a good trainer from all that I've heard.


No, no, no - not semantics, Bruce. When GH declares "Creates all sorts of problems" he's understating it if anything.

But yes, Graham is a good "coach" for self-imparted FF (note, in another "not semantics" choice I did not say "self-inflicted FF") - and his methods work "swimmingly."

And GH has all but created an "epi-Graham" (epigram) of his own below which runs counter to "One day when everybody uses PR means, we'll all be the better for it, especially our dogs."

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:No one has to FF until they do.


MG
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:04 pm

crackerd wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I believe Evan told me he had four FC's, though they were probably client dog's and not his own. Not unusual for a Pro not to have his own FC. Creates all sorts of problems.


Bruce Schwartz wrote:Sounds like semantics. I think he was a good trainer from all that I've heard.


No, no, no - not semantics, Bruce. When GH declares "Creates all sorts of problems" he's understating it if anything.

But yes, Graham is a good "coach" for self-imparted FF (note, in another "not semantics" choice I did not say "self-inflicted FF") - and his methods work "swimmingly."

And GH has all but created an "epi-Graham" (epigram) of his own below which runs counter to "One day when everybody uses PR means, we'll all be the better for it, especially our dogs."

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:No one has to FF until they do.


MG



You guys are a pain. My "semantics" reference had to do with whether titling a dog yourself or training a dog that someone else titled is important. It had nothing to do with any problems associated with boarding someone else's dog. You've conflated the two.

Epi-Graham - I like that. Satirical even.
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