FF question

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: FF question

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:49 pm

No, I've simply decided a blowhard like you isn't worth my time.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:09 pm

kiger
You are beyond redemption.
.
Doc E
HR UH MHR WR SR Casey RIP my friend :(
HRCH HR UH Tucker 1300 HR Ch. points :D
HRCH HR UH Weezle 250 HR Ch. points :)
User avatar
Doc E
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2288
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:19 am
Location: N.E. WA state

Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:54 pm

Whenever your answer to a question is to demean the questioner, you have demonstrated that you have no valid argument to overcome the questions and have lost.

To show those others in attendance Ill explain the difference.

To start though, we have to remember that you can teach FF with Smartfetch and many other programs. Pros use these programs because they do work and are faster for them to crank out dogs. Faster rarely equates to most thorough and complete.

I have my smart fetch book here and as i read through the contents, I see a section for force fetch, but not for hold. Hold is addressed. Starts on the bottom of page 30, ends on page 35. Dobbs treats "Hold" as almost half his FF process.

Evan states on page 32 that "Fetch and Hold are both force taught commands". That is true. But lets examine the difference in programs.

smartefetch advises putting the object in the mouth and either tapping the bridge of the nose or under the chin should the dog start to spit out the object.

I think this is an error in timing of the correction. Having the object in the mouth should be pleasant, the dog shouldn't get its nose tapped.

After teaching the command hold by using a gloved hand (first significant difference) dobbs uses the ear pinch to reinforce the command. (2nd difference) He places the object in the dogs mouth and if the dog spits it out, he applies ear pressure until the object is back in the mouth. This makes the comparison of what is expected and what isn't much easier for the dog to comprehend. If the dog is rolling the object or mouthing, Dobbs will raise the scruff of the neck,(third difference) this causes the dog react by closing its mouth. Your hand is always gently stroking the dogs neck unless it rolls the object. Again, this makes the comparison easier for the dog at its easy for the trainer to get the timing correct. Dobbs uses a variety of objects to help the dog gain a greater understanding of the object (another difference). Ultimately using birds. (another difference).

Dobbs then transitions to using the ecollar to reinforce hold. (another difference). Dog has been previously ecollar conditioned so the collar can be safely used here. The timing is the same. Dog drops the object, pressure on, you place object back in mouth, pressure off.

As evan talk about, the dog will usually have trouble holding the object as you ask it to start moving. With Dobbs, we have a very effective method for proving the correction at the right time. Thats the ecollar. No need to wrap a rope around the muzzle.

Another difference with dobbs is that during the hold phase the dog will likely start reaching for the object as you place it in front of its mouth. This reaction shows that dobbs method is preparing the dog for "fetch". So when we start fetch, the dog is already very used to turning off pressure by getting the object in its mouth. That makes getting the dog to reach for it much easier.


Im not going to go over fetch as Ive already proven my point.

So its painfully clear that Dobbs is a more complete and thorough method for teaching FF.

Lets all check in to see what kind of names Gonehuntin can call me next!!!!

And doc, pretty sure I just redeemed myself!!! Though if you have any rational points you would like to make Im all ears.

And if anyone else knows of a program thats more complete and thorough, let me know, Im always looking for a better way.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: FF question

Postby mastercaster » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:33 pm

I'm pretty sure I don't need to come to anybody's defence here but the Smartfetch DVD is more comprehensive than the book so you might want to watch it to see how his instruction on FFing is now more comprehensive now. I didn't read the book but Graham definitely spends a lot of time on "Hold" in the video format. I took a lot of my FF methodology from Jon Hann's Perfect Retrieve but after watching both Graham's and Hann's DVD sets I tried to take what I thought was the best of both worlds. Being new to FF, I can't say that one is better than the other. Maybe you pros could, but I think they're both very good resources. They do differ slightly.

For example, Hann starts the FF process off using a training table; Graham likes to work from the ground sitting on a bucket. Hann goes straight into e-collar work to teach "hold" if the dog has already been e-collar conditioned whereas Graham starts the process with the ear pinch, then reinforces with the collar later on.

As I said, I used both DVD sets. Because I started FFing my pup at 7-8 months of age I was prepared to work VERY slowly on the process so I used just about all the information given in both DVD sets. I don't know if that was a mistake but it sure seemed to work for me,,,,,,I think she is doing very well considering I'm only a novice. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any live birds living in an urban environment so I've only gotten as far as frozen and thawed bird work.

I should mention that Hann's Perfect Retrieve appears to be designed more for the pointer (upland bird work) where as Graham's seems to be more for retrievers. The Perfect Retrieve doesn't go into Force to Pile work like Smartfetch does but the 4 DVDs does cover other information that Graham doesn't.
mastercaster
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:24 pm

Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:40 pm

mastercaster wrote: the Smartfetch DVD is more comprehensive than the book so you might want to watch it to see how his instruction on FFing is now more comprehensive now.
.


Yes, the Smartfetch DVD is great.
It's easy to tell who has and who has not seen it.
.
Doc E
HR UH MHR WR SR Casey RIP my friend :(
HRCH HR UH Tucker 1300 HR Ch. points :D
HRCH HR UH Weezle 250 HR Ch. points :)
User avatar
Doc E
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2288
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:19 am
Location: N.E. WA state

Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:45 pm

Kiger2 wrote:And if anyone else knows of a program thats more complete and thorough, let me know, Im always looking for a better way.


It's called the Smartfetch DVD.
.
Doc E
HR UH MHR WR SR Casey RIP my friend :(
HRCH HR UH Tucker 1300 HR Ch. points :D
HRCH HR UH Weezle 250 HR Ch. points :)
User avatar
Doc E
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2288
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:19 am
Location: N.E. WA state

Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:42 pm

To be clear,
Im not trying to convince Doc or GH of anything. What Im doing is providing clear and reasoned comparisons so the new folks can make their own decisions. Ask yourselves, has Doc or GH given any rational explanations to show their points? No, they just demean.

My explanation of the differences in programs was accurate. The following are two clips of Smartfetch. They just support my critique and add a couple of other points of difference.

A couple of points, in the first clip, Evan says he only trains with objects that we train with in the field, no car keys etc.... Well, why does he use the paint roller?
If you cant give the dog a hammer and have him hold it, does the dog really know what hold means???? For the he vast majority of us our dogs are members of our family. It is a very useful skill for the dog to have to be able pick up various objects on command. To be clear, once I have the dog "hold" and then trained to "fetch", I just stick with bumpers and birds. If I have something I need the dog help with later on like groceries, I can train that.


And be sure to use birds. Many dogs dont like to pick up waterfowl at first meeting, so you may go chukar hunting and have a retrieving machine and then go duck hunting and find the dog will not pick it up. This has nothing to do with drive. So make sure you teach the dog to hold what it will be expected hunt. Dont think Evan recommends that? So during the training phase I use lots of different things to help proof. Do whatever you think is more fair to the dog.

Second. Evan doesn't use a training table. Evan doesn't say not to use them but he does not really make an effort to recommend it. The training table has many advantages. First, it saves your back from having to bend over. Second, we can secure the dog to the post to limit his options for avoiding the work. The post also has the added benefit of us getting the dog to comply with something he doesn't want to do.He doesn't want to get tied to the post, but guess what, we decide. Third, When we ask the dog to walk and hold they often have trouble with this step. With the table and Dobbs method, when the dog drops the object, its easy to apply ear pressure, pick up the object ,and place it back in the dogs mouth and release pressure. You can easily walk back and forth along the table to proof hold and maintain timely corrections without bending over. And its the same when we overlay with the ecollar. You will have to transition to the ground a dogs are place oriented and often will think they rules dont apply on the ground. It is a quick transition. And lastly, if you're more comfortable, your more relaxed which is important.



With hold, Evan doesn't really do a through job of overlaying pressure with the command. Again, Dobbs will use the ear pinch to apply pressure when the dog drops and release when you place it back in his mouth. He then overlays this with the ecollar. Pretty easy to see how much more thorough this is and easier for the dog. The dog is not asked to make any decision other than hold on. The only pressure he receives when the object is in his mouth, is a tug on the neck which brings on his natural reaction to clamp down and hold his mouth still.The correction with Dobbs method for not holding firmly it to tap on the object, if the dog drops it, ear pressure and place back in his mouth.

"Hold" and "Fetch" have two distinct meanings. Hold means just that. Fetch is a command for motion, to reach , to move. If the dog has an issue with rollin a bumper or mouthing a bird, you can give the "hold" command which the dog understands completely.

In the second clip you see a very clear distinction in methods. The fuzzy faced dog is having his ear pinched and being asked to reach for the bumper. He is really avoiding reaching for the bumper. With Dobbs, once hold is complete, he uses the toe hitch for "fetch", this is because the dog has a natural inclination to reach towards the pressure. If the dog has been thoroughly pressure conditioned to hold, he already knows that getting the object in his mouth turns off the pressure. so the transition is easier, he reaches towards the pressure and theres the bumper right where it needs to be for the dog to be successful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQx7uB_aGxI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhVdmrpvPA

So once again, you can see that there is a great deal more effort and thought given to "hold" with Dobbs than with Evan. Most of you with dogs would be very happy with the results if all you did was a thorough job of teaching hold with Dobbs method. Really, if you dont care about handling at all and your dog will go and pick up the bird then you really wouldn't need to go through "fetch". You will miss out on valuable tool and skills, but "most" of you would be happy.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: FF question

Postby PL_Guy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:38 pm

As long as you're collecting books - try The Orange Book, "Training the Sporting Dog," by Donald Smith and Ervin E. Jones.
http://www.ahdc.org/ahdcsite/storeitems.php, Amazon etc.

Jere
"Speak your truth quietly & clearly; ... Avoid loud & aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit."
So much to learn, So little time!
User avatar
PL_Guy
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: When at home: Seldovia, Alaska; otherwise: almost anywhere

Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:58 pm

Kiger2 wrote:
1. A couple of points, in the first clip, Evan says he only trains with objects that we train with in the field, no car keys etc.... Well, why does he use the paint roller?

2. Second. Evan doesn't use a training table. Evan doesn't say not to use them but he does not really make an effort to recommend it. The training table has many advantages.

3. With hold, Evan doesn't really do a through job of overlaying pressure with the command.


4. In the second clip you see a very clear distinction in methods. The fuzzy faced dog is having his ear pinched and being asked to reach for the bumper. He is really avoiding reaching for the bumper. With Dobbs, once hold is complete, he uses the toe hitch for "fetch"


1. The paint roller is used because that's what the puppy has been retrieving since it was brought home. Duh !
2. Going from the table to the ground is a wasted step. If you are only FF one dog at a time (and sitting on a bucket) there is no issue with back pain. If you hold the dog's collar properly, there is no need for a wire or a post.
3. There is extremely little pressure with the HOLD portion. Pressure begins with ear pinch.
4. Toe hitch ? What happens when the dog is out 50 yards and drops the bird or refuses to pick it up ----- run out and put a hitch around his toe -- or do you run out and pinch his ear ?

It's quite simple:
1 Teach (HOLD)
2 Enforce (ear pinch)
3. Reinforce (ecollar)
.
Doc E
HR UH MHR WR SR Casey RIP my friend :(
HRCH HR UH Tucker 1300 HR Ch. points :D
HRCH HR UH Weezle 250 HR Ch. points :)
User avatar
Doc E
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2288
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:19 am
Location: N.E. WA state

Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:17 pm

Hey Kiger
I answered you.
.
Doc E
HR UH MHR WR SR Casey RIP my friend :(
HRCH HR UH Tucker 1300 HR Ch. points :D
HRCH HR UH Weezle 250 HR Ch. points :)
User avatar
Doc E
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2288
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:19 am
Location: N.E. WA state

Re: FF question

Postby Dakotazeb » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:43 pm

I realize this thread has kind of gone south and I hope those that have tried to ruin it will please stay silent. Enough has been said.

Now, for my question. I've started my 1 1/2 year old Brittany on the Dobb's Trained Retrieve program. I haven't looked at the SmartFetch program so can someone please tell me how much difference there is between the two. I hate to switch programs but I am in the early stages of Dobb's. Thanks for the help.
Janees August Breeze - Bree
http://gundogcentral.com/view_pedigree. ... erations=5

Godfather's Dakota Elle
1X NSTRA Champion
2008-2016
http://gundogcentral.com/view_pedigree. ... erations=5
User avatar
Dakotazeb
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:10 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: FF question

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:41 pm

Dakotazeb,

I have thoroughly explained the difference in programs. Just read the posts. Send me a pm if you have questions. No need to switch programs. Remember, Evans program is good, its just not as good for a first timer. Follow each step, dont move on until you are 120 percent ready.

Wow Doc,
Thank you for answering, you will find it much more productive for those following along.Dakota zeb will get a little more explanation on the differences.

!. Evan clearly says not to use things we won't be training with in the field. Using a paint roller and bumpers are 2 different objects. We aren't going to use paint rollers to teach marks are we? I'm done with paint rollers and using bumpers months before I FF. Dogzilla has pictures of his dog holding a Champange bottle and one with a Shovel. Do you think DZ,s dog has a better understanding of "hold" or Your dog's???

2. With the table we can teach and reinforce walking hold easily. Pretty hard to do walking hold when you are sitting on the bucket. We also have the dog "fetch" on the table. Transition from the toe hitch to the collar to running the length of the table to the bumper at the other end. Basically force to pile which if we are going to teach handling is a great pre requisite. The transition to the ground is a simple 1 or two session transition, both for hold and fetch. Also, when we teach FF, the dog will have an issue moving from taking the object out of your hand and picking up off the ground. You are not going to be happy having to bend over to transition. To the ground

3,."there is very little pressure with the "Hold" command". Thats the problem, the dog never really gets pressured conditioned to "hold". Therefore never learns it as complete as he should.

4. Dobbs method reinforces the commands with the ecollar, So by the time we get to birds or bumpers in the field, the corrections are made with the ecollar. Not sure why you even asked this question? We never use or have to use the toe hitch once the dog is transitioned to the ecollar. What does Evan do if the bird is dropped 50 yards out???

Doc, it really appears that you are the one that doesn't understand Dobbs program does it not?
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: FF question

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:03 am

Dakotazeb wrote:I realize this thread has kind of gone south and I hope those that have tried to ruin it will please stay silent. Enough has been said.

Now, for my question. I've started my 1 1/2 year old Brittany on the Dobb's Trained Retrieve program. I haven't looked at the SmartFetch program so can someone please tell me how much difference there is between the two. I hate to switch programs but I am in the early stages of Dobb's. Thanks for the help.


You don't need a table, you'll only use it when you get a new dog. Rest of the time you store stuff on it. Take two card chairs and put a 12" wide piece of 3/4" plywood between them and use that. The plywood bounces a little an makes the dog a little less stable and easy to manage. When you're done, fold up the card chairs, put the strip of plywood in the corner and you're done.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1175
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: FF question

Postby Doc E » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:11 am

A paint roller is used as a retrieving device for puppies (I guess you missed the "PUPPY" part.) So, yes, it is a retrieving device, just like a bumper.
My dogs will HOLD ANYTHING --- so what ?

I'm done with this thread. People have heard the various ideas and can now form their own opinions.
.
Doc E
HR UH MHR WR SR Casey RIP my friend :(
HRCH HR UH Tucker 1300 HR Ch. points :D
HRCH HR UH Weezle 250 HR Ch. points :)
User avatar
Doc E
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2288
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:19 am
Location: N.E. WA state

Re: FF question

Postby Meridiandave » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:37 am

Did I read that Dobbs does not do force to pile? That would be a dealbreaker for me.
Meridiandave
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 am

PreviousNext

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: booger, Stretch, Willie T and 11 guests