Bringsel Training

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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby SMAbby » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:53 pm

Ritter wrote:Mary,
by no means am I an authority on how to handle a dog in the VGP. Josh and I have only done a couple, and helped a couple other dogs/handlers train for the VGP as well. All of the tasks that you and the dog must do are HUGE, especially for your first VGP. When Josh was in Germany last year training, He was training for his first VGP. He was told " You WILL NOT be doing the 24 hour blood track" this is your first test, do NOT fail the dog or lessen the dogs score because of your handling!!! Get through your first VGP and then if you want you can do the other extra VGP tasks next time.
Now this being said, you will recall that Josh did do the Bringsel with Ike. Josh really enjoyed training for it and enjoyed having his dog complete this task. Fast forward to this past HZP/VGP testing with Jax, whom you saw this year in Hugo. This dog wasn't 2 yet, and did HZP on one weekend, and the following weekend did the vgp. Josh of course was training Jax for the Bringsel, I pulled the plug on that two days before the VGP test. I didn't want the dog to fail the VGP for an "extra". And here is how the dog almost failed the VGP because of this, and I never saw this coming, and this is NOT why I pulled the plug.....dog came happily back to show Josh where the fox was laying out in the woods, tried to get Josh to follow him back, man was this dog ever happy, because he knew where the fox was and he was going to "guide" Josh back to the fox.
Do you want to fail your first required VGP tasks because you are going for extra credit? All the previous posts have tried to give you friendly advice, I am offering the same friendly advice. There are so many dogs that fail the VGP on the minimum tasks, But the short time I met you and how well you did training Max for his tests last year, I know why you would want to "push" the envelope a little further. You will do whatever you choose to do, just know some of the pros and cons of running your first VGP.
Now to the question of how practical is the Bringsel, it's great! would love to be able to let THE BITCH off the leash, we would have most of our tracks done in 38 seconds flat! but up here in the North, a dog in the woods that is interpreted as chasing deer, does not come out of the woods!
Another question can be asked as to how practical is it to have a versatile dog retrieve a dead, sinky fox through the woods, you would think NEVER, until as what happened last summer when Josh shot a coyote out in the back bean field, sent Chisle out for the search, he found it, he delivered it to hand. That scene alone was a couple different tasks of the VGP test.
Long story short Mary, have a great time training you and your dog for the VGP test. Sounds like we are going to have two DD's, one DL and one handsome Munstalander in Hugo VGP this fall.



Crystal clear.I dont want to take anything away from my dog because I want to dink around with something kinda neat. :wink: We will run our first VGP together as 2 rookies and keep the bringsel for the next go around. :D
Thanks,
I am actually going on my 4th time through the VGP rule book. It doesn seem kind of intense without adding anything new to it.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:03 pm

Dredging up an old thread to see if there are any new thoughts on this??

I'm considering training this to my pup this summer, not as a fun trick but as a tool for actual blood tracking. Our best recovery this year was in cover so thick TWO grid searches had failed to find the buck. I found the deer by letting the dogs run loose and marking where they stopped on the GPS. It was heavy rabbit country and the dogs had left the deer by the time I caught up (10 minutes to move 30 yds). I think Bringsel could be a useful skill for tracking in heavy cover where a human and a leash would be a major distraction and detriment to the dog.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:35 pm

I am not familiar with Bringsel, but keeping a dog on a leash where I hunt, is completely unproductive/infeasible for both the handler and the dog. The brush is way too thick and the dogs can track far faster when unimpeded by a human who cannot possibly keep up holding them back.

Laws requiring a dog be on a leash while blood tracking are un-informed and need to be changed. (I realize that is not easy but it is accurate.)

My dogs have recovered deer numerous times as fast as they could run down the track. Tracks that were not visible to the human eye and 15 hours old as that is the most common timeframe between a deer shot on an evening bow hunt and dawn the next morning. It allows a gut or liver shot deer to be dead just about 100% of time and they most often do not travel far when allowed to lay down and die. My dogs remain at the deer and pull hair until I arrive. Previously I located them with a bell on their collar and now I have the Alpha as well.

John Jeanneney (spelling?) speaks to the benefits of dogs being allowed to track off leash in his book. The folks in TX have been doing it for decades. I view the dog "leading the handler back to the deer" as an unnecessary novelty at best. With GPS tracking tools (or simply a bell on the collar) it is far better and easier to just let the dog remain at the recovered deer and the handler to go to the dog. That Presumes the objective is recovering the deer in the most efficient manner possible.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:47 pm

True, but pulling hair is unacceptable and a Bringsel retrieve gives the dog something else to do. Only on test day does my dog run without GPS.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:05 pm

Unacceptable according to whom?

I could care less if my dog pulls some hair out of a deer I otherwise will not recover, or at least will not recover without losing the meat and or a lot effort and anguish. Spud pulled some hair off the rear end of the buck he found for me in December. Big deal. I recovered my deer before it was bloated and stinking yielding excellent meat, which would not have happened but for Spud finding it in the pitch dark that night. Almost 100% of the time where the dog pulls hair is at the wound or the read end so the cape is unharmed. I could have easily taken the cape off that buck had I wanted it. And if the deer has been laying dead for very long the hair is slipping and the cape will not be useable for taxidermy anyway. Another meaningless edict from the testing world vs the hunting world is what that is.

Your OP indicated your interest here was in recovering real deer in the real hunting conditions. My remarks are geared accordingly.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:34 pm

What starts as pulling hair could lead to chewing guts, or ears... I want the dogs to find the game, not chew on it. Same as every other edible game. That is all.

It also results in failure of the blood track for VGP. That's a non-issue here, a leashed dog isn't going to chew the deer, and if I thought it was a risk I just wouldn't run the off leash test portion.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:54 pm

Never has any of the problems you conjecture happened with my dogs. Letting the dog wool the deer some when it finds it, is the dog's reward. It keeps them fired up to give it their best effort each time they are asked. Also never have my dogs been wooling the deer for significant lengths of time before I arrived. That is not how real world tracks go down in my experience. I can hear the bell and I follow it quietly as the dog tracks.

Beyond that intelligent dogs easily recognize fur vs birds is my experience. Spud tracks, catches, wools and then retrieves possums to me about 4 times a week this time of year when they are moving in the warmest part of the day in the afternoon. The fur is not damaged and the possums wake up and move on. And yet he retrieved a wing clipped pigeon I was throwing in a pond yesterday, a half a dozen times with the pigeon still alive when we were done.

Your dogs kill coons regularly. Do they chew on birds?

I was sharing my experience which I thought helpful to using a dog to recover deer based on what has worked well for me.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:08 am

My dogs do not chew birds, but they will chew and eat rabbits if given the opportunity. Ears are the first thing to go if I turn my back on a big training rabbit.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:55 am

Wooling a deer briefly when they track to it has not resulted in any problems with my dogs. Far cry from letting them chew on a rabbit which I would never do. But I break my dogs off rabbits anyway. So they do not leave the deer I wanted them to track and go off hunting rabbits, or hunt rabbits when I want to hunt pheasants and quail ...

I used to hunt squirrels a lot including with dogs. Everyone of those dogs would shake a squirrel when it hit the ground. Never resulted in any of them eating or damaging game either. You just let the dog get a reward and then take the squirrel away. Same thing when they find a deer.

When you said you were interested in off leash tracking for actual deer recoveries I offered some input on the subject based on what works for me. I see now it is more about the Bringsel test. Carry on.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:14 am

My prior off leash tracks have had Ari 1/2 mile ahead of me. I'm not going to necessarily be there in 5 minutes. They left the gut shot stinky rotting buck, and ate as much as they could off a coyote eaten one after that.

Maybe they wouldn't chew up a fresh dispatched deer too bad. I don't know. My friends still haven't learned to call me for the easy ones. We either find them rotten, or still on the hoof.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:36 pm

I have mixed luck giving people advice to just mark where the deer was standing when shot and memorize where it was last seen as it exited and otherwise stay out of the area when you know you have made a bad hit. That is exactly what I do. But most often others rummage around the area for hours and when they fail they call for a dog. Makes what is often pretty easy, more difficult. The rotten ones are the easiest of them all. I have smelled them myself on occasion. Just get the dog downwind of the likely area for the deer. Those still alive are not a lot different for the dog to locate than dead ones, but what comes after sure is. I have been in on some rodeos.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:47 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I have mixed luck giving people advice to just mark where the deer was standing when shot and memorize where it was last seen as it exited and otherwise stay out of the area when you know you have made a bad hit. That is exactly what I do. But most often others rummage around the area for hours and when they fail they call for a dog. Makes what is often pretty easy, more difficult. The rotten ones are the easiest of them all. I have smelled them myself on occasion. Just get the dog downwind of the likely area for the deer. Those still alive are not a lot different for the dog to locate than dead ones, but what comes after sure is. I have been in on some rodeos.


Being the last one called is the case also in Germany... even with all of the laws, a lot of times they'll do as much as possible before calling the dog!

That's where the "real tracking dog" comes in. Most dogs can do well on the pristine "test" situation.

But, the reality is that even before all of the shooter's friends have trampled around the site, the Anschuss (location of the shot) is littered with a spray of blood, body fluids, flesh, and innards that covers a decent amount of area in the direction of the exit wound... the dog experienced on sorting out such scenarios and getting on line is the TRACKER, and short of that a lot of dogs are/should be relegated to the status of "test" dogs.

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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby woodboro » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:24 pm

I've seen about 6 dogs test this way. One dog completed it.
Ironically in the JGHV test system they place fresh blood out on the last 200 meters for the dog to follow to the game.
The test is really to show reliability of what he was trained to do.

In the hunting field , as an example - A deer is shot , and the shot hole , plugs.
Now the wounded deer is walking trotting in the woods, and falls dead.
Unless at the end of the blood track , the dog can smell the dead animal , he needs to track the wounded game without blood, and return to
hunter , and show where the dead game is laying.
IMO this tracking is the up most in true game recovery.
Years ago , I shot at a beautiful buck , tracked it by myself and lost the track. (hours)
I did not have a versatile dog at the time , and if I would of had Bringsel trained dog, or baying dog I am sure I would of recovered this deer.

Like so many bird species , dogs can without a doubt determine if a bird is disabled and goes in to dispatch it.
So the question I have - when a hoofed animal is wounded , and blood no long drops , does a dog determine that animal is disabled compared to a health animal ????
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby Wolfgang » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:01 pm

woodboro wrote:I've seen about 6 dogs test this way. One dog completed it.
Ironically in the JGHV test system they place fresh blood out on the last 200 meters for the dog to follow to the game.
The test is really to show reliability of what he was trained to do.

In the hunting field , as an example - A deer is shot , and the shot hole , plugs.
Now the wounded deer is walking trotting in the woods, and falls dead.
Unless at the end of the blood track , the dog can smell the dead animal , he needs to track the wounded game without blood, and return to
hunter , and show where the dead game is laying.
IMO this tracking is the up most in true game recovery.
Years ago , I shot at a beautiful buck , tracked it by myself and lost the track. (hours)
I did not have a versatile dog at the time , and if I would of had Bringsel trained dog, or baying dog I am sure I would of recovered this deer.

Like so many bird species , dogs can without a doubt determine if a bird is disabled and goes in to dispatch it.
So the question I have - when a hoofed animal is wounded , and blood no long drops , does a dog determine that animal is disabled compared to a health animal ????



Yes he defenately can..question is if a young untrained or unexperienced dog will :wink: :?: If you shoot a boar out of the herd and it takes off with the unharmed boars a good experienced bloodtrailing dog will sort out the wounded animal and follow its track.
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Re: Bringsel Training

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:38 pm

woodboro wrote:I've seen about 6 dogs test this way. One dog completed it.
Ironically in the JGHV test system they place fresh blood out on the last 200 meters for the dog to follow to the game.
The test is really to show reliability of what he was trained to do.

In the hunting field , as an example - A deer is shot , and the shot hole , plugs.
Now the wounded deer is walking trotting in the woods, and falls dead.
Unless at the end of the blood track , the dog can smell the dead animal , he needs to track the wounded game without blood, and return to
hunter , and show where the dead game is laying.
IMO this tracking is the up most in true game recovery.
Years ago , I shot at a beautiful buck , tracked it by myself and lost the track. (hours)
I did not have a versatile dog at the time , and if I would of had Bringsel trained dog, or baying dog I am sure I would of recovered this deer.

Like so many bird species , dogs can without a doubt determine if a bird is disabled and goes in to dispatch it.
So the question I have - when a hoofed animal is wounded , and blood no long drops , does a dog determine that animal is disabled compared to a health animal ????


First, theoretically the dog is started at the point where the animal was shot... the track starts there, and it should remain with that track.

Second, if you've ever seen a Faehrtenshue (sp?) test, there is only blood/organ matter in the very beginning and end of the 1000m... and, the dogs seem to sort things out relatively easily. The dogs I've seen pass the 24h and 48h in most cases had never "trained"... they had however recovered a number of real animals in the year or two preceding the tests. In a nutshell, they just simply start on a track, and finish it by what ever means are available.

Third, keep in mind that a test is a test. With 3-judges minimum tracing a track there is a LOT of foot scent for the blood work section, even after 24h I've seen with some dogs easily navigate simple foot tracks... it's truly only OB. And, with the off-lead work all that is tested is the OB of the Bringsel command.

And, lastly as I understand it the off-lead work is usually the final resort in hunting for a deer that keeps getting up when pressed slowly by the handle/dog on lead. That's when the dog is allowed to pursue off-lead to take it down. The main issue with the off-lead work in the real world is the dog's behavior at the end when it has chased, it is tired, it is well out of the sphere of influence, and it has tasted fresh blood... not the several times thawed, sometimes dessicated thing that is deposited at the end of the test tracks.

Good discussion,

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