Overtraining a dog in its first year.

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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby hicntry » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:22 am

Dave, I heard this same stuff on the Canine Genetics list. You know....can't breed closer than a coi of 3% or some crazy #. It is bunk. You used the correct word when you said hide. If it doesn't show it doesn't exist right. Assortive breeding at its best. Now I understand why you don't think you can breed for coat, and you are right. It would be near impossible with assortive breeding. But, not only can an actual breeder breed for coat, he can breed for all the other things that make a great dog. The second photo has 3 females all from different crosses. The similarity comes from narrowing the gene pool, not enlarging it. Breeding 101. This is not much of a discussion because only one of us has first hand knowledge of what we are talking about.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/ ... 38copy.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/ ... G_3387.jpg
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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Meridiandave » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:55 pm

hlcountry.

Not sure where you got that I dont believe you can breed for coat. I am the leading advocate of using genetic testing to breed for coat on this board and probably the only one who understands the genetics and their implications.

First, All breeds are closed genetic systems. So we are not expanding the gene pool and they are already inbreed to a certain extent. So we are not changing the gene pool. Further, due to genetic drift a closed gene pool will shrink. Those are well tested scientific principles. Your assumption of what I am advocating is factually incorrect.

2nd, I have no intention of ever doing what you have done now or ever.

3rd, Lets say a genetic mutation arises in my dog. It is the best hunting dog on the planet so I would want to breed it. Once expressed this mutation harms the dog. First I would have no idea the genetic mutation is there because it would be recessive. Unless you are breeding brother to sister, or parent to offspring it would take 4 generations of some form of linebreeding for you to spot this problem. Assuming 4 pups per generation that means 4 generations a descendant of my litter would have a 14% chance of being a carrier with no expression. In a population of a 100 individuals over 4 generations the probablity drops to around .1% thats not just hiding the gene, it is dilluting it to the point of not harming the population.

It is a little harder to get the population, numbers on you because I dont know if you would allow breeding of all offspring. If you did that would mean that a minimum 32 dogs would be carriers and 8 would express. You would cull the expression on the individual dogs. But by a margin of 2 carriers to 1 clean dog would be the result of your litter. So do you cull the whole litter?

That's just the math. You may have beat the odds, but they are stacked against you in the long term.
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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby hicntry » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:57 pm

[quote="Meridiandave"]hlcountry.

Not sure where you got that I dont believe you can breed for coat. I am the leading advocate of using genetic testing to breed for coat on this board and probably the only one who understands the genetics and their implications.

Dave, it sounded pretty much like you didn't believe breeding for coats was possible in a thread you started some time back. You were looking for people to sign up for a study because coats involves way to many genes to breed for.[quote]

[quote="Meridiandave"]
First, All breeds are closed genetic systems. So we are not expanding the gene pool and they are already inbreed to a certain extent. So we are not changing the gene pool. Further, due to genetic drift a closed gene pool will shrink. Those are well tested scientific principles. Your assumption of what I am advocating is factually incorrect.

OK. that is all pretty basic and common sense.[quote]

[quote="Meridiandave"]3rd, Lets say a genetic mutation arises in my dog. It is the best hunting dog on the planet so I would want to breed it. Once expressed this mutation harms the dog. First I would have no idea the genetic mutation is there because it would be recessive. Unless you are breeding brother to sister, or parent to offspring it would take 4 generations of some form of linebreeding for you to spot this problem. Assuming 4 pups per generation that means 4 generations a descendant of my litter would have a 14% chance of being a carrier with no expression. In a population of a 100 individuals over 4 generations the probablity drops to around .1% thats not just hiding the gene, it is dilluting it to the point of not harming the population.

It must be nice to be able to figure all the percentages and use the correct terminology. While, to some folks this all sounds pretty knowledgeable, and it is. I never worried to much about it as I was way to busy doing it. Instead of talking about it, I just did it......as did countless houndsmen,, bulldog breeders, and Whele and Miller. The last 2 names you know because they set the standard in EP's. Few dogs bred your way were even in the running in competition.[quote]

It is a little harder to get the population, numbers on you because I dont know if you would allow breeding of all offspring. If you did that would mean that a minimum 32 dogs would be carriers and 8 would express. You would cull the expression on the individual dogs. But by a margin of 2 carriers to 1 clean dog would be the result of your litter. So do you cull the whole litter?

That's just the math. You may have beat the odds, but they are stacked against you in the long term.

Dave, let's be honest. No matter how inbred a dog is, one outcross undoes it all. You will be back to a 50/50 cross. This means you can back it up at any point. You do have to recognize the signs, but, this is why new blood is added when needed. Yes, I have bred full bro/sis and parent to offspring both. Turned some really nice dogs to also, but, for me it was to tight too quick. Bringing in the new blood is what is scary to a breeder like me. Novice breeders have "hidden" so many recessives in the general gene pool through assortive breeding that it a roll of the dice introducing new blood.
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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby hicntry » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:43 pm

Dave, one thing I want to point out is that I have never recommend is breeding the way I did. What is left is assortive breeding and reading pedigree's. The mind set today pretty much eliminates my type of breeding. What I object to is mainly those that make my type of breeding seem like it can't be done. It can. Still, I wouldn't recommend it. Old time breeders wanted to know what recessives they were dealing with.....now the mind set says hide them. It is a sign of the times.
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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Meridiandave » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:30 am

Hlcountry, fair enough points. One thing about genetic test in on coats what took you 2 to three generations and inbreeding to do can now be done with a blood test. Sometimes it is about the tools.
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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby hicntry » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:55 am

I think it took more like 8 generations for consistent coats Dave....but the coats weren't my initial priority. At one point when I liked the basic dog, I started picking with the coat being one of the factors. It is all moot now. I sold most all dogs w/o breeding right and gave the dogs away w/o papers when I closed up. Simply put, did my best to stop my line from being used.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:09 am

For Hicntry - 4 weeks old...

https://youtu.be/W5PdVkyx2UA
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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby hicntry » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:17 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:For Hicntry - 4 weeks old...

https://youtu.be/W5PdVkyx2UA


Now that is what I am talking about Miss K. Watching pups grow as they are suppose to is what makes breeding fun. Using mom to entice them works much better than pushing them. Nice.
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Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:15 pm

It works!! Today 4 puppies jumped in, we weren’t even trying to go near the water! They are just so bold I can’t keep them close. So much fun at 7 1/2 weeks!
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