Overtraining a dog in its first year.

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby ryanr » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:58 pm

Dave, I'm doing a similar plan. My pup was only 3 months or so old when hunting season started last year. However I did take her hunting, at first I didn't even carry a gun, then later in the season I did, just in case but there was no expectations or manipulation. I inexplicably blew the best chance I had to finally kill a bird for her so she went thru the season with no birds killed. No big deal really. She just explored and hunted and took it all in. She found woodcock, a few grouse and some pheasants. In early spring I got her on the returning woodcock, she really got fired up and loved it.

Since then she gets on launchers with homers for one or two sessions on Sundays and a couple Saturdays a month. During the week it's nothing but fun runs in the fields and woods around here. She did do her first ducks search and we killed the duck for her after a chase. Other than that she has had no birds killed for her. Her points are solid although I can't quite get all the way to her or the bird before she breaks. No big deal, we launch the bird. There's no pressure with this. Her NA is next Sunday, she'll be exactly 1yr and 2 weeks. After that she'll be force fetched and proper heeling too. No field work at all during that time. After FF, we'll take short break and then I'll see about steadying her right before hunting season. If not I'll just hunt her and demand steadiness to flush before I kill a bird for her during hunting season. Next spring then will complete steadiness to W, S & F and begin duck search. Summer will be UT field drills and duck search and then remain by blind before hopefully Utility testing her in September or October.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2312
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby ForestDump » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:39 am

orhunter wrote:I thought launchers were used to finish a dog, wing, shot, fall, release? My imagination sometimes get the best of me.....


Launchers are just to teach bird manners such as stops to flush and not creeping on birds. Hunting is to teach hunting. If a dog only ever knows a 2 acre field then it’s going to be conditioned to run and pattern a 2 acre field. Really has nothing todo with using launchers vs throw down birds or whatever else.
User avatar
ForestDump
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:42 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby orhunter » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:51 am

I suppose what we all expect from our pups on opening day is what determines our approach to early training. I enjoy watching a pup’s progress in the field and have no expectations of perfection. Our geographic location, hunting conditions and bird species do as well, like I mentioned previously.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7673
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:07 pm

orhunter wrote:I suppose what we all expect from our pups on opening day is what determines our approach to early training. I enjoy watching a pup’s progress in the field and have no expectations of perfection. Our geographic location, hunting conditions and bird species do as well, like I mentioned previously.


I get what Dave's OP was getting at. I watched a Video posted from a Pro Trainer this morning working a young GSP on pigeons in launchers. The pup had obviously not had much if any exposure and was seldom more than 2 yards from the trainer. All I could think was my gosh take that dog for a walk in natural cover where game abounds and get it focused on something beside the trainer!

A Brief Recap of Spud's First Hunts Follow:

Spud's first hunt was on Doves as has been the case on all my other puppies as that is the first season to open. Having brought him up the way I did, He sat beside me very well for his age and experience. We took a couple of short loop walks in cover to relieve some boiling over puppy energy when he could sit still no more, but nothing like it would have been had I not worked on it prior. He marked, hunted dead in whatever cover was necessary and retrieved my Brother and I's limits for 30 doves total and found a couple of birds which were not ours. The pup did a bang up job.

Took him teal hunting the next week. Our action was slow but the pup road in the boat like a veteran (because we had taken a boat ride and practiced a few retrieves in and out of the boat during the summer), sat on the blind mound and then the marsh platform (because I had used PR and Dolken to train him to retrieve from and back to it during the summer), marked, hunted dead and retrieved to hand. Having retrieved through decoys many times in training and heard a duck call while waiting in our mock duck blind beside the training pond, he was not phased by either (During the summer the wife would throw pigeons from the behind the dam while Spud and I sat in the makeshift blind, me blowing a duck call a small decoy spread in front of us, and I would fire a blank gun and Spud would retrieve. He loved it!).

Hauled him to ND, got a photo of him pointing a group of pheasants while airing him before we even started hunting. He ranged well for his first experience on the prairie and got a few points on sharptails the first day and every day we hunted. Raced to and retrieved back to my feet, all that I shot. We jump shot ducks some of which were blind retrieves and he got them all. Made a blind retrieve on a sharptail that sailed over 300 yards over the horizon and fell dead 75 yards out in a large prairie pothole lake (tossed a rock, the pup went in and as he swam he saw the form of the bird floating and that was all it took). We hunted a decoy spread in a large pothole lake one day in 30-40 MPH wind and whitecaps and he marked and retrieved a two man limit of ducks through the whitecaps.

Opening day of Quail Season at home I shot 3 birds over points, retrieved to hand, just me and the pup hunting alone (and he bumped some birds which were not shot). Shot a long spurred Rooster off a point the next day (and there was some bounding after running pheasants as well).

Been rolling on every since.

I share this only to illustrate why I am passionate that doing the right mix of exposure, PR based OB Training, Natural Retrieve, Some Pigeon Work can absolutely prepare a puppy to do a bang up job in its earliest of hunts. It is true that the wrong methods can take away from a pup. But that is reason to use the right methods not an excuse for doing nothing at all, is how I approach it.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Coveyrise64 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:24 am

AverageGuy wrote:....I watched a Video posted from a Pro Trainer this morning working a young GSP on pigeons in launchers. The pup had obviously not had much if any exposure and was seldom more than 2 yards from the trainer.

I agree the dog probably hasn't had much exposure or it wouldn't be with a trainer but more than likely the dog was focused on the bag full of pigeons being carried by the handler to load launchers. This could have been done to keep the dog in close to make filming the sequence a little easier. Hard to tell when doing setups for demo. Part 2 of the video is somewhat better. The dog is still a little sticky at the start but begins to expand on its own after finding the first bird. The handler isn't carrying the bird bag in the second series.

cr
VC TJ's Highfalutin Hawkeye MH, UTI

VC TJ's Miss Filson MH, UTI R.I.P. 5/13/03-10/15/14

Thunderhead's All Jacked Up R.I.P. "My Buddy" 9/9/09-1/27/14

"I'd rather train for perfection than fix the problems of mediocrity" ~ Me

"There are always going to be those who prefer to freeze in the dark rather than put forth the effort to light a fire." ~ Lvrdg07
User avatar
Coveyrise64
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:49 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:14 pm

I watched the second day video. Without others watching not much value in this thread, but the dog needs to have its search developed. Everyone likes to see their puppies point but search is what finds birds and the pup lacks sufficient exposure and has a weak search at the moment. It was within 10 yards or less 75% of the second day video. An example of the OP was why I brought it up.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1955
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby orhunter » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:33 pm

I’m with ya AG. Without an adequate search, the pup won’t be very productive. I let the pedigree provide the point.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7673
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:15 pm

orhunter wrote:I’m with ya AG. Without an adequate search, the pup won’t be very productive. I let the pedigree provide the point.


I could care less about the pedigree if the dog can hunt. If it has got the "it" than bag the pedigree. Watching the dog hunt, train and swim is far more important that the pedigree.
Meridiandave
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 am

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby hicntry » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:46 pm

+1 That is a given.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3726
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Coveyrise64 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:48 pm

Meridiandave wrote:I could care less about the pedigree if the dog can hunt. If it has got the "it" than bag the pedigree. Watching the dog hunt, train and swim is far more important that the pedigree.

I’m with ya Dave....

cr
VC TJ's Highfalutin Hawkeye MH, UTI

VC TJ's Miss Filson MH, UTI R.I.P. 5/13/03-10/15/14

Thunderhead's All Jacked Up R.I.P. "My Buddy" 9/9/09-1/27/14

"I'd rather train for perfection than fix the problems of mediocrity" ~ Me

"There are always going to be those who prefer to freeze in the dark rather than put forth the effort to light a fire." ~ Lvrdg07
User avatar
Coveyrise64
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:49 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby orhunter » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:12 pm

I can’t disagree but we’re sort of talking about a single dog, the one we have. There might be other (including pointing) issues that are tied to pedigree and a single dog says nothing of the other litter members. A weak pedigree could have less that stellar performance or health related criterion spread across the entire litter. I certainly don’t want a great dog out of a crappy litter or promote the breeding of such litters by purchasing such a pup. We need to look beyond our own dog.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7673
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:40 pm

orhunter wrote:I can’t disagree but we’re sort of talking about a single dog, the one we have. There might be other (including pointing) issues that are tied to pedigree and a single dog says nothing of the other litter members. A weak pedigree could have less that stellar performance or health related criterion spread across the entire litter. I certainly don’t want a great dog out of a crappy litter or promote the breeding of such litters by purchasing such a pup. We need to look beyond our own dog.


That is just nonsense. Read up on genetic drift and population genetics and then we will have a discussion. If a dog is good, and it meets health clearances, it is fine to breed. Yes a dog ahould have health clearances.

The point of population genetics is we all have bad genes in us. Therefore the population needs to be large enough to hide those bad genes, which are generally recessive. In a case like dog breeding a population should consist of 500 breeders.
Meridiandave
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 am

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby hicntry » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:23 am

Meridiandave wrote:
That is just nonsense. Read up on genetic drift and population genetics and then we will have a discussion. If a dog is good, and it meets health clearances, it is fine to breed. Yes a dog ahould have health clearances.

The point of population genetics is we all have bad genes in us. Therefore the population needs to be large enough to hide those bad genes, which are generally recessive. In a case like dog breeding a population should consist of 500 breeders.


I have to disagree with you Dave. Hide the recessives and bad stuff through large populations and all dogs have the bad ones eventually. Hide em so they can be passed around??
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3726
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby orhunter » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:48 am

Dave: That attitude is where the conflict between the top tier dogs/breeders and the people who choose to breed what they got and not the best they can get comes from. I’d bet a nickle many of these “breeders” are a poor judge of what makes good dogs across the board and are making the decision to breed based on their social status desire and will breed whatever they have to acquire that imaginary status. That old saying, “the poorest judge of a dog is its owner,” comes to mind. With a little luck, great dogs can pop up most anywhere. Consistently great litters are usually by design.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7673
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Overtraining a dog in its first year.

Postby Meridiandave » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:59 am

hicntry wrote:
Meridiandave wrote:
That is just nonsense. Read up on genetic drift and population genetics and then we will have a discussion. If a dog is good, and it meets health clearances, it is fine to breed. Yes a dog ahould have health clearances.

The point of population genetics is we all have bad genes in us. Therefore the population needs to be large enough to hide those bad genes, which are generally recessive. In a case like dog breeding a population should consist of 500 breeders.


I have to disagree with you Dave. Hide the recessives and bad stuff through large populations and all dogs have the bad ones eventually. Hide em so they can be passed around??


Ok hide may have not been the best choice of words so well get more technical. You obviously missed the part about every individual having deleterious genes in their genome. So yes you want to keep them in a heterozygous state. Concentration the genes still increaes the probability that the genes will be passed down in a hetrozygous state to more individuals, redulting in more chances of that gene ending up in a homozygous pairing.
Pretty simple math really.

There is not a geneticist on the planet that would argue against having a new health and performance tested line added into a gene pool.
Meridiandave
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests