Study on coat type. WPG application

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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby mastercaster » Fri May 19, 2017 3:22 pm

^^^^^All three of those dogs are great looking dogs! I hope my little griff looks like the one in the middle . I like the look of the slightly shorter coarse hair density.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Fri May 19, 2017 4:02 pm

This is a noble cause and I support it. However, the reality of impact to the breed will most likely be near zero. You may get a dozen or so breeders to sign on, but there are another 200+ breeders who won't. The popularity of the breed has exploded the past few years and the number of Griff breeders has exploded to meet the growing demand. Many of the dogs being bred don't have basic health testing.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Fri May 19, 2017 4:17 pm

Griffman: Stop teasing me. All three have excellent hunting coats but No. 2 is the epitome of the perfect hunting type Griff. Griff porn for sure.

JONOV: That 80 lb Griff may be at home sitting around in the duck blind but put it on the ground out west and it'll be dragging butt in 15 minutes. The pounding a dog takes, it must take all day, every day, all winter, without breaking down. Griffs thrive in the cold. Mine never stopped panting till the temperature dips below 15 or so. It's nice to hunt with a dog that doesn't have its tongue hanging out 'cause it's too warm. They never seem to tire in that kind of weather. Panting eats up a lot of energy that is best used by running.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Fri May 19, 2017 4:23 pm

You're a good man Jay, that's it in a nut shell. To make a breed wide change in breeding practices isn't going to happen if the 200 don't get in gear. Nobody knows this better than yourself who tried to fix the 200.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby JONOV » Fri May 19, 2017 5:05 pm

Maybe go to the breed club? I don't know if they would be any help at all.

ETA...I've only met one breeder, and she shows a lot. Her dogs have really long hair. Comparing them to the pictures posted upthread it almost looks as different as a Bench Setter compared to an FDSB trial setter.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Fri May 19, 2017 6:42 pm

I've talked over "breed club" with GUN and they've talked it over among themselves and they figure they're doing fine without a breed/whatever club. They are, I see both sides. With ten or so litters a year in all of N. America, I don't see how the hunting public is well served with the breed and the current size of GUN.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby mastercaster » Fri May 19, 2017 7:29 pm

SwitchGrassWPG wrote:This is a noble cause and I support it. However, the reality of impact to the breed will most likely be near zero. You may get a dozen or so breeders to sign on, but there are another 200+ breeders who won't. The popularity of the breed has exploded the past few years and the number of Griff breeders has exploded to meet the growing demand. Many of the dogs being bred don't have basic health testing.


In Canada it hasn't. As far as I know, when I was looking for my griff I found out that there were only 6 breeders in all of the country. None in British Columbia where I'm from. Four of the six are back east, one is in Alberta, and one in the Yukon Territory,,,,,and that was it!
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Fri May 19, 2017 7:33 pm

I find it a bit scarey that folks today don't believe you can breed for phenotypical traits....such as coats . Show breeders have been breeding for phenotypical traits, like coats, forever and doing it quite successfully. In contrast, the working dog folks have coats that are all over the map. Why? Another thing comes to mind about breeding for phenotypical traits. When breeding for genotypical traits, the first sign that you are succeeding is when you see the phenotypical traits falling into line even though the breeder isn't breeding for the phenotypical. Here is a couple of pictures of litters that were never bred for phenotypical traits, but were clones of each other....including the coats.

Image

Image
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby GRIFF MAN » Fri May 19, 2017 8:15 pm

SwitchGrassWPG wrote:This is a noble cause and I support it. However, the reality of impact to the breed will most likely be near zero. You may get a dozen or so breeders to sign on, but there are another 200+ breeders who won't. The popularity of the breed has exploded the past few years and the number of Griff breeders has exploded to meet the growing demand. Many of the dogs being bred don't have basic health testing.


Agreed!
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Sat May 20, 2017 9:18 am

C8YbPVEVoAAxt5K.jpg
Griffman,

All three have fabulous hunting coats. I would say dog 1 is not within breed standard.
I would go so far as it say that it is missing the wirehair gene at location RSPO2(furnishings/wirehair location). It definitely has GG gene at the FGF5 (coat length) location, but it would be pretty interesting to see what the genetics are at those locations.

I love the coats on dog 2 and 3. I am partial to dog 3 because it is a carbon copy of my Griff's coat. I have spent a lot of time looking at early pictures of the breed in Gun Dog Supreme by Joan Bailey and both coats were common in the early breed and in my opinion representative of the breed look. Most of the pictures with Korthals show dogs like 2. However there are numerous dogs with a coat like #3 and #2.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Sat May 20, 2017 9:22 am

One more photo
Attachments
20170401_160302.jpg
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Sat May 20, 2017 9:24 am

In a perfect world, MeridianDave has a great idea. One has to commend him. Problem is, it isn't a perfect world. Testing can be done for a minimal amount per dog....as long as you don't have to test 10 to 20 dogs to find a few that don't carry the recessives for the coats that are undesirable. While all the testing is going on, every Tom, Dick, and Harry is still breeding without testing.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Sat May 20, 2017 9:55 am

Dave: We need to consider the source of "standard." What we find in writing has no influence on most breeders, enter the 200 and the judges in the show ring. They have what I call, "wire in a bottle" that is applied to dogs with soft coats to give it the wire feel. The judges know it and ignore it. I doubt there has ever been a show winner with a naturally wire coat or any of the dogs competing against the eventual winners. The judges are there to please the 200, the written standard be damned. Put Griffman's No. 2 dog in the show ring, it'd come in last place. Replace the AKC judges with hunters and the results would change dramatically. Who wins in the show ring depends on who you are, it's the buddy system at work to some extent. I actually have photos of 2 dogs with wire coats from show lines but the coats were too long. I think one would have made a great hunting dog, I watched her at her NAT. She had the right stuff. Had a chance to buy her at one time but she'd been spayed so I passed. She was a Fireside dog. Put her with the right male, she would have been worth at least one test litter just for the heck of it. Pups would have been better that what comes out of the 200.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Sat May 20, 2017 10:10 am

Orhunter,

I agree that show dogs are often longer haired than the hunting dog. To me I look at every old picture of the breed I can find. To me, those dogs are the standard.

Once again, this isn't about them. It is about us right now. What we do.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Sat May 20, 2017 10:31 am

What we do? All we can do is try to educate hunters and let them know there are alternatives to "off the rack" dogs. Some listen, most don't. I also try to educate folks on how to find a breeder by weeding out the 200. I have no idea how effective I've been because most the time I never hear back from the person. I know it's a tough pill to swallow because we love our Griffs so much but the best thing is to concentrate on the good and ignore the bad. We want all our Griffs to be good but we need to find peace in knowing we're trying and that's about it. Educating people who won't listen is beating a dead horse.
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