Types of Shotguns Used

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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Kiger2 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:55 am

Orhunter,

It is incorrect to make a blanket statement that the when the beads are stacked the gun fits.

Stacking the beads is an indication of where your eye is in relation to the barrel. When the beads are stacked, your eye is higher than when the beads are in line or you only have one bead and all youu see is the bead, no rib.. This raises the point of impact of the shotstring. Because the eye is the rear sight. It is ver highly likely the if the beads are stacked then the pattern percent will not be 50/50 on the target but more likely 60/40. If one is shooting only rising pheasants if flat country this would be good. But maybe not so good for other species.

Its a pretty easy to check. Just put your full choke in and set a bench and a pattern board. Say 15 to 20 yards or so. Stack the beads and aim like a rifle and shoot. Then align the beads and repeat. (will also determine if your barrel or chokes are straight.

A stockfiitter probably isn't going to pay much attention to the beads unless its for trap. He is going to look at where you put the pattern on the board and then how you shoot clays. The only thing the shot pattern cares about is where your eye is in relation to the end of the barrel.

Now, for many the beads may end up stacked. But if it was just a matter of the beads being stacked, then you wouldn't need a stock fitter.

Stubblejumper,
My comment about trap targets always rising was generally directed at singles. But in doubles, if the second bird is falling, you better start breaking the first one faster, because as soon as it starts dropping everything changes.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby stubblejumper » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:03 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Orhunter,

It is incorrect to make a blanket statement that the when the beads are stacked the gun fits.

Stacking the beads is an indication of where your eye is in relation to the barrel. When the beads are stacked, your eye is higher than when the beads are in line or you only have one bead and all youu see is the bead, no rib.. This raises the point of impact of the shotstring. Because the eye is the rear sight. It is ver highly likely the if the beads are stacked then the pattern percent will not be 50/50 on the target but more likely 60/40. If one is shooting only rising pheasants if flat country this would be good. But maybe not so good for other species.

Its a pretty easy to check. Just put your full choke in and set a bench and a pattern board. Say 15 to 20 yards or so. Stack the beads and aim like a rifle and shoot. Then align the beads and repeat. (will also determine if your barrel or chokes are straight.

A stockfiitter probably isn't going to pay much attention to the beads unless its for trap. He is going to look at where you put the pattern on the board and then how you shoot clays. The only thing the shot pattern cares about is where your eye is in relation to the end of the barrel.

Now, for many the beads may end up stacked. But if it was just a matter of the beads being stacked, then you wouldn't need a stock fitter.

Stubblejumper,
My comment about trap targets always rising was generally directed at singles. But in doubles, if the second bird is falling, you better start breaking the first one faster, because as soon as it starts dropping everything changes.


Aiming a shotgun like a rifle is good for testing pattern density and uniformity with a given load and a given choke, and it will reveal barrels that are not aligned, but it is not proof of where your point of impact will be with your normal hold as you shoot moving targets. I can aim a shotgun like a rifle and hit the point of aim even if the gun doesn't fit me, but it doesn't mean that the gun will shoot to the same point of impact, with my natural hold, while ignoring the beads. I do my final testing for gun fit by shooting clays, since the ultimate goal is to hit where you are looking, regardless of what someones measurements may read. As to trap doubles, I generally hit the second target as it levels out, but then again, I don't shoot trap very often, so I generally shoot 44-46 on doubles, and am by no means an expert at trap.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Coveyrise64 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:03 pm

stubblejumper wrote:Aiming a shotgun like a rifle is good for testing pattern density and uniformity with a given load and a given choke, and it will reveal barrels that are not aligned, but it is not proof of where your point of impact will be with your normal hold as you shoot moving targets. I can aim a shotgun like a rifle and hit the point of aim even if the gun doesn't fit me, but it doesn't mean that the gun will shoot to the same point of impact, with my natural hold, while ignoring the beads.


I agree that shooting from a bench doesn't provide you any indication of proper fit. It can provide the basics of where to start if you need to make adjustments for proper fit. I'll shoot from a bench to determine if POA and POI are acceptable (either 50/50 or 60/40) then make note of the bead position and the amount of rib visible in regards to the target. This helps when you go back to a normal hold. From the normal hold if you don't see a front bead/rib relationship close to the bench position then the fit will need to be adjusted. For my normal hold I use a soft pre-mount position which requires a slight forward movement of the gun then to my shoulder. This reduces the tendency to sight down the barrel from a solid pre-mount position. For practice I prefer to shoot skeet from a low-gun position.

A lot about fit is relevant to how a person wants to see the target. Two schools of thought. One is to cover the target and the other is to hold a little under the target. I prefer to see the target which will require my gun to shoot a bit high. Not seeing the bird is a problem if you have hunted wild quail. Less of a problem if shooting roosters.

Beads.....I've seen very few off the shelf field guns with mid-beads. I see very little use for them for field guns. They are more beneficial to the shooting sports to insure proper pre-mount position for skeet and trap. Because shooting game birds is more intuitive the mid-bead becomes more or less useless. I don't rely on stacking the beads to determine fit. That goes back to how you want to see the bird. If you want to cover the bird then your gun should shoot flat (50/50 or maybe 55/45) so the beads would be almost aligned instead of stacked. The end game is.....know where your gun shoots, then it is easy to adjust based on the target presented.

For practicing mechanics I will use one of these.

20Ga_BoreSight.JPG
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VC TJ's Highfalutin Hawkeye MH, UTI

VC TJ's Miss Filson MH, UTI R.I.P. 5/13/03-10/15/14

Thunderhead's All Jacked Up R.I.P. "My Buddy" 9/9/09-1/27/14

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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:36 pm

Stubblejumper

I never said aiming off the bench determined proper fit. It is merely a step used as Coveyrise stated and I stated to determine where the gun is shooting and that the barrel, chokes are straight. And where the shot pattern would go spending on how you mount the gun.

As coveryrise stated we ultimately need to shoot targets to make sure everything is correct. And that depends on what game we are playing, hunting or clay games.


Im not a terrific shot, been a long time since I shot any formal trap. But as to trap doubles, we both agree the guns are normally set up to shoot a higher POI. So if we don't take the first bird quickly the second may be level or even falling which now makes our gun set up terrible for the second shot and greatly complicates hitting. We now have a falling target at greater distance and likely drifting along with drop. So break em quick on the rise.

And yes very few guns come with dual beads.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby jlw034 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:12 am

Picked up this fella yesterday. Always been nervous about higher end guns cuz I'm hard on my tools. Never felt good about taking a $2k gun into the grouse woods.

Didn't realize that Beretta made bare-bones field gun many moons ago. So now I'm the second owner of a very lightly used 686 Essential.

Shot 38 and 40 on the sporting clays course yesterday with it (I aint no stubblejumper, but that's pretty good for me!).

12 gauge, of course.

b1.jpg
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby stubblejumper » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:47 am

jlw034 wrote:Picked up this fella yesterday. Always been nervous about higher end guns cuz I'm hard on my tools. Never felt good about taking a $2k gun into the grouse woods.

Didn't realize that Beretta made bare-bones field gun many moons ago. So now I'm the second owner of a very lightly used 686 Essential.

Shot 38 and 40 on the sporting clays course yesterday with it (I aint no stubblejumper, but that's pretty good for me!).

12 gauge, of course.

b1.jpg



The way I look at things, a person only gets one chance to enjoy life, so my most expensive guns, are my field guns. My new AYA Number 2 ended up with some press marks in the stock from my e-collar remote, when a group of pheasants dropped down on the pup and I on our very first hunt, but I thorough enjoyed hunting with it all season. And my sporting clays aren't that great, I only shoot around 80% , as I am just learning sporting clays myself, and our local course is one of the tougher ones in the province. This year, I hope to spend a lot more time shooting sporting clays, and hope to improve my scores a bit.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby jlw034 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:04 am

stubblejumper wrote:
jlw034 wrote:Picked up this fella yesterday. Always been nervous about higher end guns cuz I'm hard on my tools. Never felt good about taking a $2k gun into the grouse woods.

Didn't realize that Beretta made bare-bones field gun many moons ago. So now I'm the second owner of a very lightly used 686 Essential.

Shot 38 and 40 on the sporting clays course yesterday with it (I aint no stubblejumper, but that's pretty good for me!).

12 gauge, of course.

b1.jpg



The way I look at things, a person only gets one chance to enjoy life, so my most expensive guns, are my field guns. My new AYA Number 2 ended up with some press marks in the stock from my e-collar remote, when a group of pheasants dropped down on the pup and I on our very first hunt, but I thorough enjoyed hunting with it all season. And my sporting clays aren't that great, I only shoot around 80% , as I am just learning sporting clays myself, and our local course is one of the tougher ones in the province. This year, I hope to spend a lot more time shooting sporting clays, and hope to improve my scores a bit.


The club I go to has 5 SC courses. The upper two I don't even mess with anymore, I'm lucky to break 20 clays. And most are shots I would never take while hunting.

The lower three are great practice though.

Nothing wrong with rocking a classic, expensive gun...especially if it brings enjoyment. I just figure the >$1000 I just saved will get me one more trip to shoot ducks in Canada!

Or chukar out west..

Or quail down south...

Ugh choices!
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby woodboro » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:15 am

[quote="stubblejumper
][/quote]


The way I look at things, a person only gets one chance to enjoy life, so my most expensive guns, are my field guns. My new AYA Number 2 ended up with some press marks in the stock from my e-collar remote, when a group of pheasants dropped down on the pup and I on our very first hunt, but I thorough enjoyed hunting with it all season. And my sporting clays aren't that great, I only shoot around 80% , as I am just learning sporting clays myself, and our local course is one of the tougher ones in the province. This year, I hope to spend a lot more time shooting sporting clays, and hope to improve my scores a bit.[/quote]
Exactly.... why just look at a gun , unless your in it for revenue.. Purdey , Boss etc ...
I let a Purdey slip through my fingers awhile back , and regret it. It would of taken $3-4K to get it were I wanted it as a shooter, but the $6k initial purchase was peanuts to high end guns like that.
That being said - I enjoy my dogs first , and guns second.
My point is if you are hunting behind a finished dog that is minimum worth $5k or more walking in the field with a Wal-mart special , I would be slighted.
I have always been in this sport for the long haul started when I was 10 , so its weird to say all most 50 years doing what I love.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby stubblejumper » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:35 pm

jlw034 wrote:
stubblejumper wrote:
jlw034 wrote:Picked up this fella yesterday. Always been nervous about higher end guns cuz I'm hard on my tools. Never felt good about taking a $2k gun into the grouse woods.

Didn't realize that Beretta made bare-bones field gun many moons ago. So now I'm the second owner of a very lightly used 686 Essential.

Shot 38 and 40 on the sporting clays course yesterday with it (I aint no stubblejumper, but that's pretty good for me!).

12 gauge, of course.

b1.jpg



The way I look at things, a person only gets one chance to enjoy life, so my most expensive guns, are my field guns. My new AYA Number 2 ended up with some press marks in the stock from my e-collar remote, when a group of pheasants dropped down on the pup and I on our very first hunt, but I thorough enjoyed hunting with it all season. And my sporting clays aren't that great, I only shoot around 80% , as I am just learning sporting clays myself, and our local course is one of the tougher ones in the province. This year, I hope to spend a lot more time shooting sporting clays, and hope to improve my scores a bit.


The club I go to has 5 SC courses. The upper two I don't even mess with anymore, I'm lucky to break 20 clays. And most are shots I would never take while hunting.

The lower three are great practice though.

Nothing wrong with rocking a classic, expensive gun...especially if it brings enjoyment. I just figure the >$1000 I just saved will get me one more trip to shoot ducks in Canada!

Or chukar out west..

Or quail down south...

Ugh choices!

Our local club usually runs 25 stations, some are very easy, and some I find to be difficult, because they are shots that I will never take in the field. One station involves standing on a raised platform over a valley, and shooting downward at targets crossing way below you. Another station has you standing above a creek shooting targets that start below you, and keep dropping towards the creek. I have fired a box of ammunition at each station getting comfortable with the targets, and when I came back a week later, both throwers at each station had been readjusted to change the presentation. I actually enjoy the challenge, but I see several people skip those stations altogether if they are not participating in a shoot. I found one of AYA Number 2 shotguns on consignment in 98% condition, for about 40% the cost of a new one, and the other one was my retirement gift to myself, so it was a once in a lifetime purchase, I don't make a habit of spending $7K on a shotgun.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:41 am

Stubblejumper,

Try shooting those birds below you while standing on a shale slide, Oh heck , just go chukar hunting! Lots of low going away shots
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby stubblejumper » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:10 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Stubblejumper,

Try shooting those birds below you while standing on a shale slide, Oh heck , just go chukar hunting! Lots of low going away shots


You are shooting off of a platform actually suspended above the valley , and you are shooting almost straight down while leaning over the railing As well, you are shooting a true pair, one target going away from your side of the valley, and another one angling toward you from the other side of the valley. In order to encounter that shot in the field , you would need to shoot off of a bridge, or over a sheer cliff, and there would need to be a bird outgoing and one incoming at the same time. That particular station was created to present some unique shots, not to represent an actual hunting situation.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:33 pm

You should come chukar hunting! You will see it all! (And no platforms). Chukar hunting wasn't designed to represent actually hunting, just to make one look bad!
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