Griffs and NAVHDA

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Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby Razorback » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:05 pm

Hello, I'm new to the forum and to the breed.

How important should NAVHDA scores weigh against, coat preference, hunting style of parents, etc. When selecting a puppy? I've read differing opinions on this. Some say the NA test is ruined when a young dog is "trained" for the test.

Is a UT I dog worlds apart in natural ability from a UT III or does that come down to training or lack of in most cases? Do some people get a UT III and never try again for a UT I ?

Just wondering what you guys thought.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby blue04 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:29 pm

Razorback wrote:ow important should NAVHDA scores weigh against, coat preference, hunting style of parents, etc. When selecting a puppy?


The NAVHDA scores are just one small piece of the puzzle. I would weigh it not more than equally against the other factors you're looking at. Test scores are an "indication" of what a dog has. But they don't come close to telling the whole story.

Razorback wrote:Is a UT I dog worlds apart in natural ability from a UT III or does that come down to training or lack of in most cases?


There's no way to answer this. It depends on the specific dog. In some cases the dog has issues, in other cases it could be a training problem. I once heard a NAVHDA judge say "any dog that prizes in this system has something special". I generally agree with that. In most cases, a dog that gets a Prize III has one specific factor that needs attention, and in MOST cases the same dog can get a prize I or II if a decent trainer addresses the issues (which may not have been natural ability issues to start with).

Having said that, if you look closely at NAVHDA scores you'll see LOTS of dogs that fail or get a low Prize III, then test a week or two later and get a Prize I.

Razorback wrote: Do some people get a UT III and never try again for a UT I ?

Yes. This does happen. I don't personally think that a single test score counts for much (good or bad). When I see a dog that tested three times in three different locations and got a Prize III all three times, that probably indicates something. When I see a dog that tests one time and gets a Prize III, that tells me almost nothing.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby Razorback » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:48 pm

Hey thanks for the reply blue. That makes sense. I had a breeder tell me that they will typically stop testing if the dog scores a UT III the first try...mainly because of having to travel so far for the test and the rest of the hunting ability/drive is gauged in the field.

Seems like the NAVHDA test do fill up quick. I do plan on testing my pup.


I should be getting him in December if everything works out.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby orhunter » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:05 am

Any choice made in selecting a breeder should come from someone familiar with the breed beyond test scores. Finding those people will take some research. Some folks giving recommendations may not be qualified in doing so. You are navigating a slippery slope. Know what you want and don't let anyone tell you different.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby blue04 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:10 am

Razorback wrote:I had a breeder tell me that they will typically stop testing if the dog scores a UT III the first try...mainly because of having to travel so far for the test and the rest of the hunting ability/drive is gauged in the field.


I certainly know that feeling. The nearest NAVHDA group to me is more than 5 hours away, so I don't get to train with a NAVHDA group. When I first started, that put me at a real disadvantage when it came to testing. You can only glean so much from reading the AIMS booklet. Being able to have experienced NAVHDA people evaluate your dog on a training day will go a very long way toward helping your dog get a Prize I on test day (assuming you have the motivation and ability to address the issues they point out). I never had that luxury.

Different people seek test scores for different reasons. Here are two approaches I've seen, and my personal opinion on each:

(1) Some people look at NAVHDA scores as a way to evaluate the dog's strengths and weaknesses - For this to make any sense to me, you need each dog to be tested multiple times (which isn't practical for a lot of people). Running UT once and getting a Prize I tells me that the dog is capable of it, but it doesn't tell me whether the dog had an exceptionally good day that day, whether the dog has inherent problems that just didn't show up that day, whether the dog had any "lucky breaks" involved to get that score, etc. Likewise, a single Prize III or no prize doesn't tell me whether the dog had a bad day, whether there were other variables involved that affected the score, whether the handler screwed up and not the dog, etc.

(2) Some people approach the the UT test like a lawyer trying to pass the BAR exam - Some breed organizations "require" a minimum score for the dog to be considered for breeding. So in some cases people just keep taking the test over and over until they get the minimum score. This really doesn't tell me much about the dog either. You never know whether the dog had problems, whether the training was inadequate, or whether the handler just never got it right. If you see a dog that tested 5 times and failed the duck search every time, you know they have a duck search problem. But you still don't know whether that was an ability, training, or handler issue.

There is no right answer here, but the one thing I will say is that the best way to pick a breeder/litter is to evaluate the dogs in person for yourself. If you don't have the ability (because of time or geographic restraints) to see the dogs in person, the next best thing is to seek the advice of someone you can trust who also knows the dogs in question.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby orhunter » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:34 am

When you visit the various websites, you'll notice many will boast a NAVHDA connection and at the same time, a relationship with AKC and the "Show" ring.

Learn how to read a pedigree. When you see "CH" attached to the various dog's names, these are "Show" titles. You will also notice kennel names that participate in "show" competition although the dog(s) may not possess a "CH" title. Most hunters would agree it'd be best to avoid these kennels/dogs.

NAVHDA test score mean something when entire litters are tested and the litter, collectively, has a fairly high average. An individual high score says nothing about the quality of the litter from which it came.

Do not deal with breeders who sell to non-hunters. Do not deal with breeders who have a contract and retain part ownership or breeding rights. When you hand them the cash, you own the dog.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby Razorback » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:44 am

Thanks again for the replies blue and orhunter. What you guys said goes right along with what I was thinking. I did look at dogs,in person, from two different breeders. I really liked all of the dogs a particular breeder had (5 total I believe). They do hunt their dogs and NAVHDA test all of them. It did worry me a little that they show the dogs but I learned that wasn't the main focus. Confirmation isnt bad as long as the dog is hunted, NAVHDA tested, etc. right? The bloodlines look good as far as my amateur eye can tell.

Orhunter, can I send you a pm?
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby Leslie » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:34 pm

My two cents... I think that combination of NA and Ut tests, provide a pretty good indication of what the do g is capable of doing. I combine that with what does the dog do during the hunting season, how is the dog around other dogs, kids and people. I will disagree with OR Hunter. He writes off show automatically. Is my dog a lesser dog because he hunts 60 days of the year, has an excellent NA score and well on his way to a UT this fall- BUT he also has points in the show ring? That is crazy.... He was shown for two major reasons. First he has very nice conformation and a really nice harsh coat. This conformation holds true in the field. He runs well- as opposed to my female with hip problems who has an awkward gait. The second reason I put him in the ring, is that I live in rural Montana and he doesn't see alot of people or male stud dogs. He is shy....The show ring has made a huge difference in getting him over his shyness and being comfortable in any situation. I train all summer, and I hunt.... He has spent four days in the ring...... So you prove to me that he is a lesser hunting dog because he has been shown. By the way, his dad Jacque is a VC and has a show title...... and I know that dog hunts well, because I have seen him.
Bottom line is just do research, and watch the parents in the field. If they have no drive or water interest it is obvious. Good conformation makes a big difference in how well the dog runs and it's longevity.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby Razorback » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:27 pm

Leslie wrote:My two cents... I think that combination of NA and Ut tests, provide a pretty good indication of what the do g is capable of doing. I combine that with what does the dog do during the hunting season, how is the dog around other dogs, kids and people. I will disagree with OR Hunter. He writes off show automatically. Is my dog a lesser dog because he hunts 60 days of the year, has an excellent NA score and well on his way to a UT this fall- BUT he also has points in the show ring? That is crazy.... He was shown for two major reasons. First he has very nice conformation and a really nice harsh coat. This conformation holds true in the field. He runs well- as opposed to my female with hip problems who has an awkward gait. The second reason I put him in the ring, is that I live in rural Montana and he doesn't see alot of people or male stud dogs. He is shy....The show ring has made a huge difference in getting him over his shyness and being comfortable in any situation. I train all summer, and I hunt.... He has spent four days in the ring...... So you prove to me that he is a lesser hunting dog because he has been shown. By the way, his dad Jacque is a VC and has a show title...... and I know that dog hunts well, because I have seen him.
Bottom line is just do research, and watch the parents in the field. If they have no drive or water interest it is obvious. Good conformation makes a big difference in how well the dog runs and it's longevity.
Leslie


Definitely good points Leslie. I hadn't considered the benefit a dog gets from being around others in a show setting.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby GRIFF MAN » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:57 am

Leslie wrote:My two cents... I think that combination of NA and Ut tests, provide a pretty good indication of what the do g is capable of doing. I combine that with what does the dog do during the hunting season, how is the dog around other dogs, kids and people. I will disagree with OR Hunter. He writes off show automatically. Is my dog a lesser dog because he hunts 60 days of the year, has an excellent NA score and well on his way to a UT this fall- BUT he also has points in the show ring? That is crazy.... He was shown for two major reasons. First he has very nice conformation and a really nice harsh coat. This conformation holds true in the field. He runs well- as opposed to my female with hip problems who has an awkward gait. The second reason I put him in the ring, is that I live in rural Montana and he doesn't see alot of people or male stud dogs. He is shy....The show ring has made a huge difference in getting him over his shyness and being comfortable in any situation. I train all summer, and I hunt.... He has spent four days in the ring...... So you prove to me that he is a lesser hunting dog because he has been shown. By the way, his dad Jacque is a VC and has a show title...... and I know that dog hunts well, because I have seen him.
Bottom line is just do research, and watch the parents in the field. If they have no drive or water interest it is obvious. Good conformation makes a big difference in how well the dog runs and it's longevity.
Leslie



I'm not trying to speak for Orhunter, but I think he wasn't talking about individual dogs but kennels that have a bunch of show titles in them. What we see is that
" sometimes" kennels that rely on show dog titles as the main decision factor for breeding you may get less than desireable dogs. The main point is that dogs that are bred to be winners in the ring are not always the best hunting dogs. Show people look and breed for different things than breeders that use their dog for hunting.

My opinion is that you should look not only at the Navhda scores of the parents but any siblings or off spring that they may of had. When you see that a breeder had a litter of 7 and all were tested in the NA test you can get a good indication of how well the breeder is doing and that the breeder puts their dogs in hunting homes.
Tests are one day of a dogs life and that day can be a great day or a bad day.... but if you look at multiple dogs from the breedings you a can get a better assessment of the kennel/breeding/pedigree.

But remember....if you get a Griff you can't go wrong !!! :wink:
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:08 pm

My .02...

Good Griffs can come from breeders who choose to show their dogs in the AKC conformation ring. Many Griffs are placed in homes that only hunt and have no desire to run their dogs in tests. In reality, many of the newcomers to the Griffon world don't know much about NAVHDA until they are educated by their breeder. Even if new owners have every intention of testing their dog, only the dedicated ones will once they learn the expense and time commitment required.

Remember, a judging team only sees a dog for 30-45 minutes during a dogs life to assign points to the performance they witness on a given day. Finding consistency in a particular breeding or line of dogs MAY be an indication of quality dogs. The greatest variable in the training/testing scenario is the owner.

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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby Leslie » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:47 am

I also would not buy a Griff from a purely show breeder without a bit more knowledge of that line and hunting background. I want a dog that hunts and has good conformation and a good coat. I have had soft Griffs that stick at my heals and an over the top Griff in drive. My latest Griff in UT training has a laid back attitude that is super biddable, but hunts big and tears up the water. He is a joy to be around. He also doesn't have the flash and dash that my high driving Kirin has, but is much more enjoyable to train, and he produces more birds. He isn't wound quite so tight. These are the qualities that I look for in a Griff. If I could breed the two and have a perfect mix, I think I would have the ultimate Griff. However, Kirin had some hip issues and I had her spayed.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby Razorback » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:31 pm

Leslie wrote:I also would not buy a Griff from a purely show breeder without a bit more knowledge of that line and hunting background. I want a dog that hunts and has good conformation and a good coat. I have had soft Griffs that stick at my heals and an over the top Griff in drive. My latest Griff in UT training has a laid back attitude that is super biddable, but hunts big and tears up the water. He is a joy to be around. He also doesn't have the flash and dash that my high driving Kirin has, but is much more enjoyable to train, and he produces more birds. He isn't wound quite so tight. These are the qualities that I look for in a Griff. If I could breed the two and have a perfect mix, I think I would have the ultimate Griff. However, Kirin had some hip issues and I had her spayed.


The breeders I am talking to both hunt and are heavily involved in NAVHDA. The sire is very laid back in the house but really wired in the field and about 57 lbs. He did the drag, duck search, retrieve, perfect. However he needs more work at steadiness at the blind and that is preventing him from a prize I. He has a nice dense medium harsh coat. If I can get a pup to turn out like him I will be happy.
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby GRIFF MAN » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:10 pm

Razorback wrote:
Leslie wrote:I also would not buy a Griff from a purely show breeder without a bit more knowledge of that line and hunting background. I want a dog that hunts and has good conformation and a good coat. I have had soft Griffs that stick at my heals and an over the top Griff in drive. My latest Griff in UT training has a laid back attitude that is super biddable, but hunts big and tears up the water. He is a joy to be around. He also doesn't have the flash and dash that my high driving Kirin has, but is much more enjoyable to train, and he produces more birds. He isn't wound quite so tight. These are the qualities that I look for in a Griff. If I could breed the two and have a perfect mix, I think I would have the ultimate Griff. However, Kirin had some hip issues and I had her spayed.


The breeders I am talking to both hunt and are heavily involved in NAVHDA. The sire is very laid back in the house but really wired in the field and about 57 lbs. He did the drag, duck search, retrieve, perfect. However he needs more work at steadiness at the blind and that is preventing him from a prize I. He has a nice dense medium harsh coat. If I can get a pup to turn out like him I will be happy.



Sounds like your mind is made up and you are set !! Mission accomplished, good luck and post pictures to drive Orhunter nutz !! :lol:
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Re: Griffs and NAVHDA

Postby Razorback » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:12 am

Well kind of. I'm still deciding between both. Im still going to watch some of the other breeder's dogs hunt.

A side question: when you see a dogs coat described on a NAVHDA score sheet, is it he 3 judges who "judge" the coat type? How much different is a dense harsh coat to a dense medium harsh coat? Is there a general range? Could one set of judges call it different than another set?
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