The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association Tests

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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby Constructeur » Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:30 am

GPBLITZ wrote:
Fun Dog wrote: One of my pet pevs is many will not brace a dog, work on backing until the dog is qualified for the invit.


One of the down sides to picking a single method of dog testing/training. It's not that hard to find an AKC hunt test for most of us; it just makes sense to get out there and continue to build the dogs skills, especially if you're chasing a VC title.
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby Fun Dog » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:47 pm

Definitely a good idea to enter some hunt tests before the invitational. It's one thing to work on backing in training. Quite another in a test situation. At the invitational you will be expected to back without the added incentive of people stopped around the dog. The handler of the pointing dog is not allowed to go to their dog until the other dog has established a back. So make sure your dog is backing the dog and not the situation. Twice in my brace we came over a hill to find one dog on point and the other backing. What a beautiful sight. And no doubt they had done it on their own.
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby SMAbby » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:55 pm

Fun Dog wrote:We had the misfortune to do the blind in the fog which was beyond what we trained for and as you stated impossible to train for. It was heart rending to fail on something we would have excelled at had we tested but a half hour later.


I had a friend there that saw your run first hand. They could only shake their head in disbelief that it wasnt run when the fog cleared. They said it looked like you sent your dog into the abyss. I can only imagine what your dog was thinking, How fair is it to send a dog into a wall of nothing.

Sorry that it didnt go better for you. :?
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
Baja vom Wamsbach VJP 64, HZP 169, NA 112
Anka vom Loofkamp VJP 66, HZP 139,HZP 172, NA 112
Krystal Creeks Untamed Spirit ( Abby) NA 93 Prize III UT 200 Prize II
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby marsh » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:18 pm

My friend said the same thing....
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:51 pm

First off to anyone who gets to the Invitational...respect is due....you have a VERY good dog and have put in your time. All tests/competitions, unless they are run on "virgin" ground on wild game, are at best an
imitation of hunting. We all take our chances and get what we get. which always depends on many factors. The real unfortunate part of any test result or title is that it is just a part of the overall evaluation we should make on any dog. As breeders we need to be guided by much more than the "numbers"...and that is the potential injustice of score keeping. I always thought it is the difficult birds...the difficult retrieve... that defines a dog. You rarely see that at a test.
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby Densa44 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:32 pm

Thanks for the post. I really hope that this test gets a rethink at the annual meeting. Why not run it 4 times a year in different parts of the country, even 2 countries? It would be a much fairer and better test for dog and handler.

The pictures in the most recent NAVHDA magazine with a handler at the Invitational holding a dummy that his dog has retrieved are, to me at least, embarrassing.

I don't think that your dog had a fair shot. Lets run the next one in Alaska, it would be closer for me.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby marysburg » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:14 am

Doggy Doc, I agree with much of what you have said regarding the changes in NAVHDA, and I don't like the drift away from emphasis on hunting. I hope that the use of Dokken dummies on the retrieve was due to the outbreak of Avian Influenza, and the resulting ban on the transportation of birds; rather than changing philosophy of NAVHDA.
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby Calvinator » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:14 pm

The reason for Dokkens was due to Avian Influenza and OH's very conservative State vet. He prevented lots of bird activities. No pigeon racing, no education birds were allowed to travel from zoos and other facilities.
That being said, I'm not sure I see the need to use dead ducks for the double mark. It's a trained behavior. It could be two tennis balls and the dog should perform the task.
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby Fun Dog » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:03 am

The use of Dokkens had nothing to do with sponsors . Ducks were not even allowed at the fairs. This was an edict from the board of game and not NAVHDA. The only Chuckers allowed had to be raised in the state of Ohio. If they had not been able to get game birds the event would have been cancelled. For the blind they used a pheasant. It was not ideal to use Dokkens, but it allowed the event to go on rather than be cancelled. While it's true that NAVHDA testing is a game to be played, it's not without benefits. We upland hunt, but this year my husband was recovering from knee surgery and climbing the mountains after the elusive Ptarmigan was out of the question. He could get to the duck ponds however and so we tried our hand at that. All that training, playing the test game, paid off as Lily retrieved duck after duck, none of which she'd seen fall. It was great fun and I was delighted to see all those hours of training paying off.
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby Fun Dog » Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:15 pm

This year the pass rate at the invite was more like 30%. I find it hard to believe that is a dumbed down test. There were some mighty fine dogs there that still failed. Just one mistake can take you out of the running. While training for one component of the test may not be that difficult, training for all the different areas and having the dog do well at all is the ultimate challenge. NAVHDA does still run dogs by themselves at the UT level, but it gets stepped up for the invite to braces which are more difficult. Also, your reference to using Dokkens because they are a sponsor is not correct. Dokken is not listed on the sponsor page. NAVHDA has nothing to say about what the Agriculture board decides, they just have to try to figure out how to make it happen once a problem crops up. I think they did a great job working with what they had to work with. Oh, And I spent more than 6 days hunting with my dog this year. Does that mean I get to keep her?
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:55 pm

I hunt 2-3 people and 2-3 dogs as often as I can. I guess most of us have friends who hunt and enjoy hunting with them.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby gwp4me2 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:33 pm

I can see where some people hunt alone almost entirely. Some people are so hard to get along with nobody will go with them! (not mentioning any names) The man/dog cooperation was covered in the UT test. The Invite is to go beyond that.
Average of 6 days? Bull. How was that calculated? They never asked anybody I know. So are you saying that if I hunted 60 days there were 9 other members who never went out? Again I call bull. I would say our chapter averages more like 15-20. Was it Twain who said 'there are lies, damn lies and statistics.'
Easier because more people qualify? How many members of NAVHDA are there now compared to 20 years ago. How much more training info is available now compared to 20 years ago? How many more well-bred dogs are there now? How much better equipment do we have now? It is easier now, not because the test is easier but because the preparation is easier. I have remote launchers, homers, collars, a preserve(open 7 months/year), knowledgable training partner and dogs that have been tested and hunted for many, many generations to go along with wild birds and hunting. Sure, getting a dog to that level is easier.
When I was young it was rare for anybody in high school to be able to dunk a basketball. Now most every kid on the team can. They are bigger and have much better training techniques. The rim is still 10ft high.....
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Re: The good, bad, ugly, whines, sour grapes, excuses, etc

Postby KJ » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:51 pm

Running in braces at the invitational is one of the biggest positives for that test, IMO. What other versatile tests hunt dogs in braces, other than the VHDF PE? None that I know of, and I think that is a big mistake. If a dog steals point, won't back, tags, bumps, is aggressive towards, or is any other way more concerned with its bracemates than finding birds,then I want to know about it. I have seen these traits far too often in versatile dogs and am not sure why people put up with it. But when only a very small percentage of the versatile dogs are ran in braces, it is easy to see why.
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