Lab guys and duck search

North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association Tests

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Re: Lab guys and duck search

Postby Georgia Boy » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:12 pm

Explain to everyone just what is required to earn the HRCH title
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Re: Lab guys and duck search

Postby Coveyrise64 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:46 pm

Georgia Boy wrote:Explain to everyone just what is required to earn the HRCH title

I'm certainly no expert on HRC but here is what I could find.....more to it than what I've posted regarding whistle and voice commands though. According to the rules, 15 points are awarded for passing a Finished Hunt Test.

The Finished Hunt will have at least four (4) tests. These four tests shall consist of the following:
(1) a multiple marked water retrieve,
(2) a multiple marked land retrieve (either or both the multiple marked water retrieve or the multiple marked land retrieve must include an honor,
(3) a water blind retrieve, and
(4) a land blind retrieve. These blinds may or may not be included in one of the required multiple marked retrieves. Part of the test
must include a diversion as the dog returns to the retrieving line from any retrieve.

HUNTING RETRIEVER CHAMPION (HRCH) - The Hunting Retriever Champion (HRCH) title is attained by earning one hundred (100) Championship Points. Sixty (60) of the one hundred (100) points must be earned from the Finished category. Points can be earned in
Started, Seasoned or Finished. Dogs are not required to earn points in Started and/or Seasoned to earn this title. A maximum of forty (40) points can be earned in the Seasoned category towards the Hunting Retriever Champion (HRCH) title, unless ten (10) Started
Championship points were earned, then, a maximum of thirty (30) Seasoned Championship points can be earned toward the HRCH degree.

http://huntingretrieverclub.org/PDF/2013HRRulebook.pdf

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Re: Lab guys and duck search

Postby Hunters Edge » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:18 pm

In most duck hunts the use for both can and are utilizes. If your in a blind and you have three birds down on the water. The dog seen one go down but to do a duck search for the other two not only waistes time, tires the dog out that that reserve may be needed, and you take the chance of flaring ducks out of range while the search takes place. So it is much more time sensitive to train dogs to mark multiple falls but usually that is almost impossible on a duck hunt. The next best is the dog being sent to the location with blind retrieves.

Now in most hunts behind the blind is acres of thick cattails or fragmities almost impregnable. When ducks go down in there are after the shot a cripple just drops 100 yards in it. Well you can not do a blind and the versatile dog or duck search is the only way to retrieve down game. GSP and Wiem clubs have three water rating test the RDX has three multiple marks and one blind retrieve the dogs are off leash on heel and must be under control at all times. They can not move until sent so if they are sitting and stand your done. Any way both are essential on a duck hunt.

We need to be more respectful to other breeds and their testing and hunting we need to be constantly learning to improve no matter what breed of dog we have.

Years ago I trained with hrch club belonged to it never ran a test. Did a fun hunt test at a neighboring club dog refused to pickup pigeon gave the command again when she brought it to me it was soaked with kerosene I seen first hand how narrowed minded individuals can be. Let's not go to that level. Now on a better note a friend I trained with had difficulty with her finished hrc and was considering going to the grand, then decided to hunt her. The situation is they hunted a river the other side was off limits private property that they did not have permission. You guessed it a low area with acres or a wall of cattails. She sent to where the cripple went in but returned without the bird. She resent her and she cameback with a pop bottle which she admitted she used to force fetch her. Well she always was inquisitive of the testing I did with NAVHDA and watch me train before and asked for help from me to train her lab to search. Now there are many of us out here that is not narrowed minded. Her dog never lost a cripple after being taught. I have taught several dogs blind retrieves, multiple marks and duck searches. As they enter fragmities, rushes, cattails, any where the dog will not be visible for hand signals I give a whistle command to hunt it up and the dog goes on search mode.

By training both methods it has made my waterfowl hunting much more enjoyable. I suggest you do the same.
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Re: Lab guys and duck search

Postby jlw034 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:17 pm

HUNT 24/7 wrote:
orhunter wrote:A V Dog can be handled and controlled.


This is something I've been told, but I haven't been able to find a video of a DD specifically taking casts. My 14 month old DD is in the beginning stages of learning 3 handed casting, he's smart & i'm sure he'll catch on.
As far as labs vs versatiles, I think it's good to have a little of both, a dog that can be handled to the general area of a goose that went down 150 yards away & then use its nose to track it down once he hits scent.


Digging up the past here, but how is the casting/lining training going? Any tips for a noob?
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Re: Lab guys and duck search

Postby Densa44 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:28 pm

Lining here's what I do. I walk the dogs every day usually on oil company roads, they are plowed straight roads, that are only used once per day, and I'm on a first name basis with the well operators. I drop dummies out behind me as I walk (3) and when I get about 50 yards from the first one (the last one dropped) I line the dog up and send her, it helps if she can see the dummy the first few times.

It is not long before she is whistling out 600 yards, going full speed through the old fall and getting the farthest dummy. She will almost break on the blind.

The lining has been easy to transfer to the water, once my hand goes down and she hears dead bird, she is ready to go. She has learned to go; without a shot, more than once and farther every time. In a hunting situation I use both the elements of duck search and handling, if she'll carry the distance across the marsh (the lining lessons) she will hunt up the cripple or dead bird.

Give it a try, I started it just to give the girls more exercise than a senior citizen could manage.
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Re: Lab guys and duck search

Postby Hunters Edge » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:36 pm

I start at the pups young age prior to pointing but would work regardless if done correctly. I do not force fetch but would if needed, just never had to force pup into doing they thought was fun then converted to command. Any way started multiple marks 180 from one another after a couple quit. Then bring it together until 45 or 30 degrees from one another to keep dog/pup retrieving the first one being the last and using memory on second. Then I add third bumper all the time just two or three times quit leaving dog/pup wanting more, then set this up two to three times a day. What I am doing is not only teaching marked retrieves I am having the dog/pup utilize and stimulate memory glands and you will notice the memory escalate. At that point it is the baseball diamond but first before this I already have the pup stopping on a whistle blast. I also when the pup was working singles pup has learned whistle two blast for retrieve, come three blasts pause three blast pause etc. All whistle commands taught for later come command used in woods until I hear whistle close enough than quit just keeps dog within hearing range of beeper instead of coming all the way in.

Any way the baseball drill will teach over and back. To line drill one way is set them up in a line mentioned above. I have had better results with what I am about to write. I had a 100 yard approximately dock going through swamp, but can be done with path in snow or even an open field. In a field use a tree by itself if no tree a flag or post (white/black plastic depending white in summer black on snow) dogs learn by association so if they line up to a tree, post etc they will learn to line something in skyline for future sends. I dump a dozen bumpers or so usually with a 5 gallon bucket, walk back 20 or 30 yards leave bucket. I then go get dog bring to bucket throw bumper while he/she is sitting or on whoa I usually put them on whoa. Now this is the most important part. You must move your leg to the left or right depending if you are right handed or left, you foot has to point exactly inline to where your sending the dog. Now place your hand in front of the dog above his/her eye line but low enough for the dog to use as reference for a line but at the same time not interfering with their line of sight. This exact sequence needs to be very precise, you are teaching the dog to take a line but you have to take all attempts to be exact. Leave your hand their do not move your hand but give your fetch command either the whistle or the dogs name then fetch, he/she should blast down to where all thge bumpers and will pick one up may even try to pick up two. When he comes back his memory should be working repeat without throwing just setting he/she up and send. This time grab your buckets and keep eye on dog but bachup quickly, repeat, repeat DO NOT SEND DOG if there is no bumper you will destroy any training you have accomplished. I usually stop when I know there is one bumper left his memory is their is one left. Do this one time three days in a row in the same field tree/post and the fourth day put the bumpers out and stand back where you ended up the dog with memory and association should do a line. Now try doing short lines in other fields etc you can use this drill for the command back as well. In my pups they were doing blinds and lines at 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 months, then I would start them on pointing birds. I would do refreshing course before hunting seasons. Hope this helps just remember the importance of sending him, your foot pointing/hand he/she has to take cues off this to go out that 100 or more yards.

I remember Princess in a MH test at 9 or 10 months a double flushed each gunner shot a bird she only marked the one and brought it back. I turned set her up gave a line and sent her on the second bird which she retrieved to hand as well, the judges and gunners saw something they rareley seen done with precision.

At 7 months Dottie got a 4 in duck search and steadyness by blind. She found 3 out of 4 birds planted in the field but they dinged her on run, figure that one out. She found a pheasant retrieved to hand. Pointed a chukar, when I flushed it gunner shot it about 50 yards in a tree line. Sent her for the retrieve when she got to the treeline bird flew, dog stopped to flush. Called her back with whistle command set her up sent her on a line again to treeline she advanced into the tree line instead of the edge and retrieved to hand.

I could mentioned or told hunting stories but these can be confirmed. Just wanted to demonstrate the usefulness good luck on the training.
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Re: Lab guys and duck search

Postby HUNT 24/7 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:50 pm

jlw034 wrote:
HUNT 24/7 wrote:
orhunter wrote:A V Dog can be handled and controlled.


This is something I've been told, but I haven't been able to find a video of a DD specifically taking casts. My 14 month old DD is in the beginning stages of learning 3 handed casting, he's smart & i'm sure he'll catch on.
As far as labs vs versatiles, I think it's good to have a little of both, a dog that can be handled to the general area of a goose that went down 150 yards away & then use its nose to track it down once he hits scent.


Digging up the past here, but how is the casting/lining training going? Any tips for a noob?



Very best! Were going into our 3rd season & he is everything I had hoped for, 3 handed casting, angle backs lines great all the handling I wanted & still an incredible nose & search ability.
Training him to cast wasn't as easy as it is with a lab, he is waaaay more independent, he learned the cast very quickly with Evan Grahams program, it wasn't until I wanted him to go one way & he wanted to go the other when we ran into problems.

Starting to train 3 handed casting I used Evan Graham's Smartworks, he did great until I started running him on blinds. Initially we butted heads, I would cast him one way & he would go the other because thats where HE wanted to go. It took lots of corrections on him not taking my cast & lots of going back to make sure he knew exactly where I wanted him to go & to reassure myself that he in fact did understand what I wanted him to do. Over time he learned to not just listen to me because he had to, but to trust that when I cast him somewhere, he was going to find something.
Now he's great, he has faith in me that when I cast him, he's going to find something, I'm sure we will butt heads again once hunting season gets here as theres no way to replicate a real hunt with all the birds & scent there will be. But we will work through that too.
One of my favourite drills is to run with him is a blind retrieve with a drag to simulate a bird that has sailed off 2-300 yards, landed & then started to walk off. It is a good combo of handling & natural ability. Lots of times when hunting this happens.
My best advise is to follow a program, be patient, a DD isn't a lab, in the end you will have the best of both worlds, a dog you can handle & has incredible natural ability.
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